Parody or Postmodernity?
I was reading Phil Johnson’s blog and ran across this jewel, provided by Nathan. I think Phil aptly described my own feelings when he stated, "It was funny, horrifying, deeply disturbing, and appalling all at once." (I look forward to reading more of Phil’s blog. At first glance, it appears as though Nathan has covered just about every subject I had planned on blogging in just one blog! =:o Still, I can hardly wait to read beyond the headings.)
I think the guy who produced this video is serious and not making fun of Christianity, though I did wonder at first. Obviously this young man is talented; however, it has become an unfortunate trend in the church to mix worldly pleasures with the things of God. What is even more unfortunate is that this type of behavior is highly encouraged by our church leaders in an effort to draw the younger crowd into the church (though, there are also compromises in other areas of the church, but I’ll leave that for another blog entry), thus creating false converts. I'm not saying that the young man who created the video is a false convert, but I know there are many out there.
Somewhere along the line our Creator was morphed from who He really is-- God Almighty who demands and deserves our reverence, the God who chastises those whom He loves, the God who leads us in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake-- into an impostrous "loving" (read: non-judgmental) God who is "hip and cool" and does not hold one accountable.
Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying that God is not loving (read: gentle and comforting) and longsuffering because He most certainly is. But the love of God is pure, holy and just. It does not tolerate compromise or stand for irreverence. There will always be consequences of one degree or another to one's actions whether good or bad, and it is quite dangerous to teach otherwise.
Our pastors need to repent and stop with the gimmicks already. They need to lead by putting their faith in the word of God, lifting up Jesus who will draw all men unto Him instead of allowing compromise to overrun the church by preaching "feel good, non-offensive" messages. They need to be preaching holiness and reverence, obedience and sacrifice, and holding their congregations accountable for their actions. It is my prayer that this young man will wise up and direct his talents toward an uncompromised approach of witnessing and preaching the gospel and drop the über-coolness act.
Labels: Postmodernism
posted by Dawn @ 7/30/2005 06:35:00 PM
18 comments
18 Comments:
This issue has been a sore spot with me for awhile as well. It seems that some of the so-called contemporary churches in trying to be relevant have removed the offense of the cross. Until these CEO's, I mean pastors :), realize that the gospel its self is offensive to the lost then these tactics will continue to bring false converts to our churches.
By the way, Nathan's site has some well done presentation on the left column of his blog.
BTW 2, Have you been to Phil Johnson's bookmark page? These bookmarks have led me to many good Christian sites and warned me about many as well. I rarely disagree with his judgment. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark.htm
LOL CEOs/pastors. My husband and I have used the same term.
I've only read a few of Phil's entries and none of Nathan's (only paged up and down it). I will be sure to take a good look at his left column. My husband has the spurgeon.org site bookmarked (we're not calvinists, but I'm very interested to learn about that doctrine).
As a matter of fact, after I posted this blog entry I read a couple of Phil's posts and was surprised to find I had used some of the same wording as was used in an excerpt of a sermon he had posted on this same subject.
I'm just so excited to find that there are people out there who are as outraged about this apostasy as I am. Most of the people that I know are either a part of it or are apathetic toward it.
Oh my. I had no idea that spurgeon.org was Phil Johnson's creation!
On a different note relating somewhat to Phil Johnson, we used to listen to John McArthur on the radio a lot back in the 80's and early 90's.
Did you check out the Hall of Church History? Another Phil Johnson site: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/hall.htm
There are some good sites that clearly teach Calvinistic beliefs one of these is: Monergism - http://www.monergism.com/
I hold to some some some so-called Calvinistic belief such as the Doctrines of Grace. I have much to say on that but these things are so misunderstood that it is sometimes not worth the battle.
The mid 80's to early 90's is when I listened to MacArthur as well. I was strongly influenced by his books on the Lordship of Christ. I still like MacArthur but tend to prefer Piper.
Dawn wrote:"Somewhere along the line our Creator was morphed from who He really is-- God Almighty who demands and deserves our reverence, the God who chastises those whom He loves, the God who leads us in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake-- into an impostrous "loving" (read: non-judgmental) God who is "hip and cool" and does not hold one accountable."
Very well said. When I first saw this video I was shocked to see such a profane song mixed with such a holy book. The transfer of lyrics (example: “me so horny” into “me so holy”) sent shivers down my spine. For where is the fear of God in that? Where is the reverence? I’m reminded of:
• 2 Cor 6:14-16: “…What communion has light with darkness?”
• James 1:27: “…keep oneself unspotted from the world”
• 2 Peter 2:11: Avoid even a hint of appearance of fleshly lusts.
• Romans 12:2: Don’t fashion ourselves according to the fashion of the current age.
• 1 Thess 5:22: Avoid any preference or style associated with evil.
• 3rd John 11: Do not imitate what is evil.
• Proverbs 4:14-15: Do not even go near evil. Stay as far away as possible.
The list could go on.
But thanks for the encouragement guys. I am thankful to God that you are striving to “examine everything carefully, hold fast to that which is good” in the manner of pop-cultural Christianity. (CEO comment was right on)
P.S. Monergism.org is good stuff. And if you sometimes wonder about the effects of ‘monergism vs synergism’, see my buddy’s blog on that here: Out of the frying pan and then our following brief conversation here: comments
SDG
No, GG, I have not seen the Hall of Church History, but I will be sure to visit, as well as the Monergism site.
We hold to some Calvinist and Arminian doctrine, but I really only know of the basic outline to these doctrines. I've always just read the Bible and rarely any books about the Bible or books put out by famous pastors, and for a long time was not even aware of all the "doctrines" developed and "heresies" outlined by the church. I only knew doctrines by names such as "the trinity", "oneness", "predestination", etc.
I believe that God is sovereign and that He can and does intervene where He sees fit, but I also believe that we have freewill. I guess the part I don't believe is that God arbitrarily chooses who does and does not go to Hell. I think we very much put ourselves there. Not that God isn't capable of being sovereign in the area of our wills and that it wouldn't be just for Him to choose our wills for us, but rather He chooses not to do so. But it may be that that is not what Calvinism is at all. That is why I'd really like to learn about it more in depth.
Some who hold strictly to calvinist doctrine use the account of when God hardened Pharoh's heart as proof that it was beyond Pharoh's control whether or not his heart was hardened toward God. Well, it is true that God hardened Pharoh's heart, but Pharoh rebelled and rejected God first. So the way I see it is that when we act God does whatever He wants with that action. To me, the Bible teaches that God has predestined what he has foreseen and foreknows.
I've only recently begun to become interested in church history. There seems to be this notion that if you don't know church history that you can't know the heart of God or that you are somehow lacking in your christian walk. (I'm not saying that all calvinsists think this way, so please don't get me wrong.) I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. I believe the Bible itself, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is sufficient to teach us all that we need for salvation and daily living, and that by studying the bible we will learn of all the doctrines. Please don't misunderstand, I have no problem with learning from church history, but I do not believe knowing church history is necessary to know the heart of God because God can teach us one-on-one and/or collectively.
John 14:26
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
I Corinthians 2:13
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the
Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
I John 2:27
"But the anointing which you all have received of him abides in you, and you all need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you all shall abide in him."
Anyway, I'm looking forward to learning more about calvinism.
Nathan, thanks for stopping by and commenting. I look forward to reading your blog.
Nathan: "The transfer of lyrics (example: “me so horny” into “me so holy”) sent shivers down my spine. For where is the fear of God in that?"
=:-0 I knew the song was bad because I've heard it once or twice, but I had NO idea that those were the specific words. This makes it even more egregious! Where is the fear indeed!?
Excellent scripture references. Too bad we don't hear them in church much anymore.
Thanks, too, for the links. I'll be sure to read them. So much to learn. :-)
Well there is a lot of information to digest on both Church History and Calvinism available. The task is never ending.
Interesting link between growth and knowing church history that someone made to you. I wonder if that person was thinking that we don't know who we are or where we are going unless we know where we came from? Church history does provide secondary information (primary being the Word, of course) but there is a lot of garbage filtering to be accomplished first. The irony, though, that in the end the Bible is still the judge of truth.
Adding to what you said, we should though allow the Spirit to be our primary teacher if true growth is to occur. When the Spirit teaches then the mind, will and emotions are affected, rather than just the mind being engaged.
Concerning Calvinism (so called), from my perspective the key question to be answered is, are humans truly spiritually dead, or is there some spark of life that is able to respond without enabling from God? or put another way - Is the will free or is it bound in sin?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
That was my delete.
GG: "I wonder if that person was thinking that we don't know who we are or where we are going unless we know where we came from?"
The way I took it was that they basically believe the church didn't stop with the apostles and that the church fathers were handed the torch, so to speak, and sort of took on the "apostolic" role by developing doctrine, labeling heresies, etc. And that men like Luther, Spurgeon, etc. play an all too important part in Christendom. I'm not saying that these men are not pillars of the church, but they are not apostles. These people quote Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, etc. more than they do the Bible.
I also think they put way too much emphasis on education. E.g., I would venture to say that if a pastor was not seminary educated, then he'd probably be seen as unqualified to be a preacher. I have nothing wrong with someone who is seminary educated, but most seminaries these days don't even believe in the inerrancy of scripture! A lot of them actually crush people's faith.
GG: "Concerning Calvinism (so called), from my perspective the key question to be answered is, are humans truly spiritually dead, or is there some spark of life that is able to respond without enabling from God? or put another way - Is the will free or is it bound in sin?"
Good question. This is how I see it. We are born in sin; therefore, we are spiritually dead, thus the need to be "born again." God has given to every man a certain measure of faith which allows him to believe. It is GOD who first draws us. And because HE draws us we are therefore given the ability (read: freewill) to accept or reject Him.
John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Romans 12:3
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to
every man the measure of faith."
John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
The part where I'm mostly undecided is whether or not Jesus died for all. Calvinism seems to teach that Jesus came to die only for the elect. I can see where one might say that He offered His life to all, but not all will accept Him, therefore, He in essence only died for the "elect." But that is not to say that every person (read: all) did not have a chance to repent.
Hope that makes sense.
I just wanted to add that I did take the time some years ago to learn the history of the cannonization of the bible. Through that process I did learn a little about church history. The only time I ever read the writings of the early church fathers is if I'm in a discussion with someone and they bring it up or if I'm reading an article and the article mentions their writings. So I've learned quite a bit just through those few processes.
I bought a book which gives a brief history of the church, but I haven't read it yet. Now I'm just curious about the history, but I don't believe I "have" to know it to understand christianity.
Hey Dawn, I typed out my response before I saw your latest post. I will give some thoughts on your latest questions later today. But for now, here's what I wrote initially.
SDG
Good thoughts on church history. I not real familiar with church history either, however I think that a good knowledge of it is wise.
You said:“it is true that God hardened Pharoh's heart, but Pharoh rebelled and rejected God first.
But if you look at Exodus 4:21 it says:
21And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Here God tells Moses before he even goes to Egypt that He will harden Pharaoh’s heart. Later however, Pharaoh also hardened it himself (Ex 8:15).
We must first understand that all humans deserve Hell and punishment. Then we can ask the question “why does God save at all?” instead of “why doesn’t He save everyone?”.
You said: “the Bible teaches that God has predestined what he has foreseen and foreknows.
This assumes 2 things: first that man has moral goodness in and of himself to choose God, and second that God acts according to the whims of man. But when you think about it, why would God have to predestine at all if man already has the ability to choose what was right? Have we robbed God of His free will?
Who gets the final glory when man is redeemed? Man because he “made the right decision”, or that he was smart and “joined the right team”? Are we Christians better than those Christians who haven’t chosen to repent?
No we are not. Because if God hadn’t give us our belief (Phil 1:29), our faith (Eph 2:8-9), and our repentance (2 Tim 2:25; cf. Acts 5:31; 11:18), then we would be in the same boat as they.
Just a few thoughts…
SDG
Dawn,
I don’t think Romans 12:3 is talking at all about measure of faith pertaining to salvation, but rather measure of faith pertaining to post-conversion obedience and spiritual gifts. (For Verse 1 Paul calls them ‘brethren’, he also commands them to present themselves as a living sacrifice…something that would make no sense in the salvation realm, and he also goes on to discuss different member and spiritual gifts of the body of Christ.)
Dawn said: “thus the need to be "born again."
John 1:13 says:…who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
Therefore we are born again not because we will, but because God wills.
Dawn said: It is GOD who first draws us. And because HE draws us we are therefore given the ability (read: freewill) to accept or reject Him.
Why do some reject Him? Is God’s grace not effective enough to save all? Or are some better or smarter than others? I believe Jesus deals with this very plainly in John 6: 44, but also here:
Matt 13:15 ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
Dawn said: Calvinism seems to teach that Jesus came to die only for the elect. I can see where one might say that He offered His life to all, but not all will accept Him, therefore, He in essence only died for the "elect."
You are right in a sense. Calvinism recognizes that not all will be saved. Therefore Christ’s death will only propitiate for God’s wrath only in the case of those who are in heaven. Therefore if Christ died for all, why are some men sent to hell? Can a person in hell cry out “I have been crucified with Christ”? No, Christ only died for those whom the Father has chosen, as Hebrews 10:12-14 plainly says:
12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Are all being sanctified? No, only the redeemed; therefore all who Christ effectively died for will be sanctified and saved. For Christ died for all sin, not all sin except the sin of unbelief, for if Christ died for the sins of all men, then God has no basis to punish men in hell.
I hope these thoughts help you. I’m not trying to attack or put down your beliefs, I’m only trying to give you things to consider since you showed some interest.
God Bless
Hi Nathan, thanks for your input. I really do appreciate it.
Nathan: "But if you look at Exodus 4:21 it says: 21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.""
Right, God was telling Moses that He would eventually harden Paraoh's heart, but back up to Exodus 3:19 and you will see that God also knew before hand that Pharoah would reject Him and that He first allowed Pharaoh to exercise freewill.
"And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."
God is showing us here that Pharaoh first rejected God and His command to let His people go. It is further expounded in chapter 5.
Exodus 5:1-2
"And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness. And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
In chapter 6, we see that God says that He will then harden Pharaoh's heart. Verse 1 says:
"Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land." (emphasis added)
Look at the account of Moses' disobedience in chapter 4. This, to me, speaks of freewill. God allowed Moses' will over His own.
Exodus 4:10-17
"And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart. And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs."
Nathan: "We must first understand that all humans deserve Hell and punishment.
Agreed.
Nathan: "Then we can ask the question “why does God save at all?” instead of “why doesn’t He save everyone?”.
I really don't ask why doesn't God save everyone (though I know others do) because I know why, rather I ask, "why doesn't everyone want to obey God and escape the torment of Hell?"
I think the reason God saves at all is because He is a loving God; hence, sending Jesus to be the propitiation for our sins.
I said: “the Bible teaches that God has predestined what he has foreseen and foreknows.
Then you said: "This assumes 2 things: first that man has moral goodness in and of himself to choose God, and second that God acts according to the whims of man."
I do not believe it necessarily assumes that man has moral goodness in and of himself as we have seen that it is GOD who gives to every man the measure of faith to believe and second, it is GOD who DRAWS us allowing us to act upon that measure of faith.
Just because we are born into sin, doesn't necessarily mean that God did not give us the ability to accept or reject Him or that we cannot know right from wrong and act on it. I believe He allows us that much for his laws are written on our hearts and we are born with a conscience. Look at Moses. Look at David. Look at Solomon. To me, that very much shows freewill. I believe God created us "thinking" human beings.
You are right that He does not act according to the whims of man. I believe the bible teaches that God is very much in control and that He allows only what He will. Look at Deuteronomy where the Lord says if you will do this or that, He will do such and such; and if you don't, He will do such and such. Here are a few examples:
Deuteronomy 28:1-3
"And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. ..."
Deuteronomy 28:15-16
"But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field."
Also, I believe that God foreknew what would happen, but His plan from the beginning was to offer up salvation for all, thus "whosoever."
Matthew 10:32-33
"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
Nathan: But when you think about it, why would God have to predestine at all if man already has the ability to choose what was right?"
Isn't Calvinism all about predestination? The bible says that from before the foundation of the world Jesus was chosen, as were we. Besides, I don't see it as God having to predestine, but rather that is how he chose to do it.
Ephesians 1:4-5
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
Romans 8:27-30
"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (emphasis added)
Which leads me to the question of the heart as seen in v. 27 above. Why would God search our hearts if we did not have freewill? And why is it that our righteousness or unrighteousness is obtained through the heart if we have no freewill?
Acts 28:27-28
"For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it." (emphasis added)
Romans 10:9-17
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Nathan: "Have we robbed God of His free will?
Not at all. In God's sovereignty he chose to allow us freewill. I really do not see where the bible teaches otherwise. That does not mean that He doesn't still direct our paths or that He doesn't have a perfect will or a perfect plan. Regardless how we humans act, God's plan will come to pass. He will intervene.
I plan on going to the Monergism site tomorrow. :-)
Nathan, I typed my latest post before I saw your latest post which I will have to respond to later. :-)
Nathan: "I hope these thoughts help you. I’m not trying to attack or put down your beliefs, I’m only trying to give you things to consider since you showed some interest.
I know you're trying to be helpful and I really do appreciate it. It may end up that we will have to agree to disagree, but I'm still open-minded to the truth whatever that is. :-)
I am working on a sermon for the 14th of August so I am not able to write much at this point but if I may interject this...One of the best statements on understanding Free Will from the Calvinistic (Reformed perspective) comes from the Westminster Confession of 1647.
Quote:
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]
End quote
I would recommend reviewing the whole document to clearly understand the doctrine of salvation from the Reformed (Calvinistic) perspective.
GG: Very well put.
Dawn, you’ve touched on a Divine mystery here. For how can God be sovereign and yet still hold man accountable? The scriptures do not tell us, but they do emphatically tell us that all who come to salvation come because God chose them for salvation before the world was created (Eph 1), and at the same every man is accountable for not coming to salvation. Look at Acts 4:27:
27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28“to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Did these men sin? Yes. Will they be punished for crucifying God in the flesh? Yes. Did God ordain these actions? Yes. God determined what He wanted to do, and then did it. Does this mean that because God purposed it that these men are not responsible? No, they are fully responsible. And please note, the scriptures (here and pertaining to our Pharaoh discussion) do not say that God acted after seeing what man would do. God does not look into the future then rewind the tape and make some eternal decries. That logic is completely foreign to scripture. Instead we see things like Isaiah 46:8:
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.
Also note Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
And this is all explained by Paul in Romans 9.
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Above we see that God has free will to do with His creation what He pleases. He has chosen a select few for salvation and have left the rest in their own sin.
Dawn said: “it is GOD who DRAWS us allowing us to act upon that measure of faith”
But that isn’t what Jesus says in John 6:
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
And again: 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
And again: “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
And again in John 15:
16“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain,
I don’t hear Jesus ever mentioning that He draws us and allows us to choose ourselves. He says ALL He draws will not be cast out, He says NOBODY can come to Him without being drawn and ALL that do come will be raised, He says NOBODY can come unless it has been granted by the Father, and He says HE chose us instead of us choosing Him.
Dawn said:Just because we are born into sin, doesn't necessarily mean that God did not give us the ability to accept or reject Him or that we cannot know right from wrong and act on it. I believe He allows us that much for his laws are written on our hearts and we are born with a conscience. Look at Moses. Look at David. Look at Solomon. To me, that very much shows freewill. I believe God created us "thinking" human beings.
There verses I quoted before point to the fact that man is dead and sin and cannot chose what is good. Is repentance and faith in God good? Yes, therefore the scriptures testify that we do not have the ability to accept or reject Him on our own. Moses, David and Solomon were all redeemed humans. A redeemed human can chose what is good because he has a new nature. If we have the ability to chose good then Jesus didn’t come to save us, but to point us in the right direction, to help us choose the right way.
Please note Romans 4:4
4Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
If we have any part in the salvation process, what is given to us (eternal life) isn’t grace (unmerited favor) but is a debt…it is OWED to us…it is a paycheck for what we have done instead of being an unmerited gift of God.
Dawn said:His plan from the beginning was to offer up salvation for all, thus "whosoever."
Yes you are right. Whosoever believes will be saved. Problem is, all are dead in sin, nobody can believe unless God grants them belief (Phil 1:29), and the ‘whosoever’ are the ones that God has chosen for life.
I would like to address some of your other questions but for the sake of space I will leave you with these to think on. It would take hours to properly explain all that you laid out. But please know that the greatest theologians and the most Godly men of the last 1000 years were all calvinists. They asked the same questions you have, and have answered them with the scriptures. Just think about who was a calvinist:
-John Calvin (duh)
-Martin Luther (this was the foundational doctrine of the reformation against Rome)
-J Edwards
-C Spurgeon
-JC Ryle
-All of the puritans (J Owen etc)
-Martin Lloyd Jones
-AW Tozer
-A Pink
-Augustine
And many more. Also note how today we have such as JPiper, JMacArthur, RC Sproul, Al Mohler etc...
Have all of these guys gotten this stuff way wrong?
SDG
Post a Comment
<< Home