Some Great Blogs I've Discovered
A few months ago I discovered some really great blogs. Having read them over the months, I find their theology to be exegetically sound; though, I disagree with their belief that a person can lose their salvation. I understand where they are coming from because I once believed salvation could be lost. I have not read their teachings on this particular issue because I am more concerned right now with their teachings on total depravity, unconditional election and irresistible grace. I am happy to agree to disagree with these fine gentlemen on eternal security.
Ben Henshaw's blog is called Arminian Perspectives
Billy Birch maintains two blogs:
Classical Arminianism
The Green Gospel
Roy Ingle's blog is called Arminian Today
Enjoy!
Labels: Arminianism, Calvinism, Theology
posted by Dawn @ 1/26/2008 10:50:00 AM
55 comments
55 Comments:
This is my first time to your blog and by the way, I liked your classes for men. I was curious to ask what made you change from a conditional securist to an eternal securist?
Hi Rachael, thanks for stopping by and I'm glad you liked my classes for men. I thought they were pretty funny. (I did not make them up.)
Let me get back with you in a few days when I have a little more time to explain what made me change from a conditional securist to an eternal securist.
Hi Rachael, thanks for your patience. I hope it is not too convoluted to follow.
My bible teacher, whom I greatly respect, is an eternal securist and I'd decided that I would simply overlook that part of his belief system. He never harps on the subject, per se, but he does insert a comment here and there during bible lessons when a scripture tends to point toward eternal security. Still, up until a year and a half ago (maybe it's been two years) I rejected the notion.
Also, The Way of The Master ministry often speaks of "false converts". I had always thought of the people I had known who had "seemed" to get born again but would later abandon the faith as them having lost their salvation. This "false convert" phraseology made sense, but I kind of thought of them as those who had "said the prayer" but had never yielded any fruit and their lifestyles had never changed, nor were they interested in things of the Lord.
I guess where it all started coming together was mostly my deeper digging into the word once I was introduced to Calvinism. It was when I was studying and discussing Ephesians 1 along with Romans 8:28-30 that it sort of hit me that we are "sealed". I had read Ephesians and Romans many times before but I had never viewed this "sealing" in a permanent sense before that time. Also, I should mention that my bible teacher had pointed out that when the people during the tribulation (I'm pre-trib) take the mark of the beast they are sealed and they canNOT break that seal. So he would point out the dangers of believing that the devil had a seal more powerful than GOD ALMIGHTY. His logic was good, but I still thought his analogy went further than maybe God had intended. He also said that if our salvation was left up to us then we would SURELY screw it up, but rather our salvation (if we're really saved) is up to God through Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
So anyway, the day that the "sealed" in Ephesians 1:13 hit me as it being a permanent thing when I was studying Calvinism made me start to "seriously" rethink my position. I had always rejected the notion that if someone was once seemingly born again and they fell away that they were never really born again. I had always seen that as a cop-out answer from the eternal securist. I felt that I John 2:18-19 only spoke to those who had walked down the aisle and never really had a change of heart or it was those who had been "saved" when they were very young and never really lived the life of a Christian as an adult. But now, I see that it really means that a person who appears to be a Christian and abandons the faith was never really born again. God knows the heart and He knows when someone is sincere in their prayers.
Also, the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:1-23; Mark 4:2-20; and Luke 8:4-15 explains the condition of the heart and the word being sown in people's hearts. Only the good heart (not good as in holy, but good as in comparison to a person who rejects the gospel) will receive the word and keep it in their hearts and produce good fruit. Again, this was during my study of Calvinism vs. Arminianism/non-Calvinism.
After these changes in my thinking I started to view scripture in a different light. We're saved by grace alone through faith alone and we're sealed and God perfects us. If someone is truly saved, then they have assurance that God will see them through to the end though there may be times we fall, but we will never abandon the faith. We see this in the lives of many of the patriarchs. They lived ungodly lives, but they always were sorry and repented. What will be lost through our disobedience is rewards in heaven.
I have to say that it has been freeing to know that I have a blessed assurance even though I'm not perfect. Before, I lived in total condemnation and guilt and now I feel the proper amount of guilt and don't let it haunt me continually; rather, I repent quickly and try to learn from my mistakes and bask in the fact that God truly loves me and will keep me.
I hope this helps you to understand my journey. If not, please feel free to ask more probing questions and hopefully I can answer them.
If it is okay with you, I'd like to discuss one of the points you made.
First, people in the tribulation aren't sealed by the devil; they take the mark of the beast. Those that take his mark are also those that worship the beast. (Rev 14:9-11) There is at least one reference to the people of the earth becoming afraid of God and trying to hide, calling on the very rocks to fall on them to hide them from God. (Rev. 6:15-17) This would seem to indicate that the people during that time know what is going on and are terrified but yet refuse to repent.
(Rev. 9:20, 21) We also know that the beast blasphemes against God (Rev. 13:4-8), so it would appear that those who choose the beast's mark are completely aware of the fact that they are choosing him over God and realize the
implications of accepting his mark. So it isn't a matter of the devil sealing his converts; it's a matter of people choosing the beast and their own wickedness over God. It is one of the saddest cases in Scripture because it is a case where the people have chosen a path and a sin so despicable to God that He refuses to have His Spirit continue to call them to repentance and hence they are lost for all eternity. Their condemnation has nothing to do with the power of the devil but
the consequences of violating God's command.
I need to go for now but if you don't mind, I'd like to continue discussing your other points in later posts.
God bless. Rachael
Rachael, what you've said has given me food for thought. I'll need to look at those scriptures more closely. I've read Revelation many times and I've always seen taking the mark as a seal and I've also heard others say as much, not just my bible teacher. But maybe I "learned" it before I actually read it. I can't remember which came first. I would really like to get to the truth of the matter. I'm wondering if the sealing of the 144,000 via a mark on their foreheads is where the idea comes from that the mark of the beast on the forehead of those who took it is seen as a seal.
Also, I remember thinking that some people might take the mark of the beast not because they necessarily WANTED to "truly" worship the beast, but because they were not strong enough to resist taking the mark and were not strong enough to die for their faith. But I do see where the people who took the mark were deceived which presumably lead to their taking the mark and worshipping the beast. But I'll have to look at it closer to come to a conclusion.
Right now I'm in neutral.
I don't think I was clear in my last post as to why I reject the idea that the devil seals those with the mark. It is simply that the Word doesn't say that. It says that God casts those with the mark into Hell. Those who take the mark have "sealed their fate" but there isn't the first bit of Scriptural evidence that it is the devil who sealed them. All we know is that God has decided that all who take this mark are worthy of Hell.
Thanks for hearing me out.
Rachael
I'm sorry if I started my second comment rather abruptly.
Maybe I should also tell you what made me interested in your blog. I was recently complaining to my husband about the rarity of women who even know what their Bible says. My husband frequents Arminian Perspectives and told me that you might be a good person to check out, so here I am.
I am a conditional securist, but believe that there is more that I can learn. I also don't believe in coming to the Bible with the closed mind approach, which means that if a person can truly show me that my beliefs are errant and show me the truth, that I'd rather change my beliefs than try to make the Bible say what I want it to. So when I saw that you once were a conditional securist who became an eternal securist, it rather piqued my interest. So I hope that I haven't come off as trying to be argumentative. Also I'm rather hoping in talking to you that I'll gain the ability to better talk to others in matters of faith and doctrine. So if it is okay with you, I'd rather like to continue our discussion on conditional security vs. eternal security and next time I'll share a little bit about why I believe what I believe.
God bless.
Rachael
I started to tell you (and wish I had gone with my instincts) that my change of mind isn't that I studied all the actual verses which pertain to the eternal security vs. conditional security issue; though, I do believe it is the proper way to go about it. So, I'm not really married to my conclusion of eternal security, but for now I'm leaning heavily in that direction. Ashamedly, I have just been too lazy to search it out for sure. (Right now I'm more concerned with total depravity, unconditional election, predestination and irresistable grace.) Either way, I believe we are to persevere in our faith until the end. Not that we're saved by our works, but that our works are an evidence of our faith.
You said, "I also don't believe in coming to the Bible with the closed mind approach, which means that if a person can truly show me that my beliefs are errant and show me the truth, that I'd rather change my beliefs than try to make the Bible say what I want it to."
I feel the same way about coming to the bible with an open mind and I'm always open to correction. It was foolish of me to have mentioned the eternal security issue since I am not really able, at this time, to properly defend the position; however, I AM interested in the reason you believe conditional security is what the bible teaches and then we can take it from there.
First I think that most people have a misunderstanding as to the nature of salvation. Think of salvation less as an event and more as a person: the Person of Christ. Christ said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, and you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:1-6)
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)
"I am the way, the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
"When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." (Colossians 3:4)
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." (1 John 5:11)
By this I do not say that salvation is devoid of the event of one's life being given to Christ but that the nature of salvation is that salvation is Christ.
More posts to follow. God bless.
Rachael
From cover to cover, the Bible is the story of God's relations with man. From the Garden of Eden to the plagues and destruction in Revelation, I see a God Who is reaching out and calling to man to have a relationship with Him. Though God can change our wills, He rarely does, preferring instead to allow us free will and giving us the choice to willingly come to Him. The same God Who does not force us to come to Him initially does not force us to stay in Him and with Him either. Since Christ is salvation, remaining in Him is imperative to salvation.
"Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life." (1 John 2:24, 25) and the verse I already quoted "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
Besides the verses I just quoted there are also exhortations given by the apostles and the calls to persevere that further lend credence to this concept that abiding is not automatic. "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God." (Acts 13:43) "Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." (Paul speaking to disciples from Lystra)(Acts 14:22)
More to follow. God bless. Rachael
Maybe this seems a little out of order, but instead of showing all of the Scriptures that evidence falling away, I'd like to talk about the process of falling away since so many people get hung up on this one point. I do not believe that salvation is unconditionally secure nor do I believe that it is easily lost; the truth lies in between. I do not believe that one sin will necessarily send you to Hell but that this loss of salvation comes when we willfully choose that we'd rather live in our life of sin over our walk with God/ relationship with Christ.
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31)
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:38, 39)
Christians do sin, though, true Christians sin, but then when conviction comes they repent of their sins and make it right with God.
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." (1 John 2:1, 2)
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:7-9)
On a side note, I'd like to say that I don't buy the "we have to sin everyday" philosophy, Scripture clearly shows that to be a lie. "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:5-7) I just wanted to list one quick referrence though there are more that could be cited.
I believe that it is a matter of the heart. It is a matter of Whom or what we'd rather serve. Will we choose to live for God and to seek to please Him or would we rather live in sin and pursue the "lusts of the flesh"?
God bless. Rachael
Rachael, do you think that if a person falls away (i.e., they have not lost their faith, but they are not really seeking God) for a long period of time say, several years, that they've lost their salvation? If so, I guess they need to be born-again, again? Or do you think they have not really lost their salvation, rather, they simply need to repent?
What if a person dies in their state of backslidden-ness?
I wanted to ask this when we were talking about the mark of the beast, but didn't want to seem combative or argumentative. So, please don't take this question in the wrong way, but do you think that once someone has taken the mark of the beast that they can repent of it and still be saved? Or is their fate "sealed" once they've taken the mark? If their fate is "sealed" once they've taken the mark why is that? If you can break the seal of salvation, shouldn't you be able to break the seal of damnation?
Dawn,
BTW, FYI, and whatever other abbreviated form I can use, I hold to eternal security. I think the issue is an important one, and I have certainly had some questions of my own in the past (which I have posted last summer); but I, as of now, still hold to eternal security.
I like the blog and an anxious to read more in the future!
L8R
Billy
Billy, thanks for stopping by. I hope to one day seriously study this out for myself.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dawn, You needn't have worried; I don't believe sincere questions are argumentative. Before I answer your questions, I'd like to discuss this concept of sealing in a little more depth. After you showed me that verse in Ephesians, I set out to understand its meaning more fully myself. First I looked at what the word for seal meant exactly, so I looked its definition up in a concordance and from what I can tell it has two possible implications in this context. Briefly stated, 1) a mark, in this case it would be a mark put on us by God's that we are indeed His. 2) It said that another possible use for a seal would be as security from Satan. I think that definition #1 fits the context the best, though let's discuss definition #2 first. We are indeed kept by the power of God and are not under the control of Satan, but of course this doesn't change the facts 1) we are tempted by Satan, though God gives us the power to overcome that temptation and 2) we still have the free will to choose to sin, which I would say also has the implication that we have the choice to even choose to go back to a lifestyle of sin as well.
I think that definition #1 fits best, though as I will explain. Let's take another look at that verse: "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13, 14) Notice very carefully the language employed here; Paul is using legal terminology. The seal of the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance. Now tell me about that car you got for your husband. Unless you gave that dealership the money right then and there in the full amount of the asking price, you had to sign a financial contract with a bank that stated that they would loan you the money and you would pay them back the money you owed. Though they let you drive that car off the lot, if at any time you decided to stop paying that bank, you've breached your contract and they have every right to come and take the car back. Though the car was yours, it was provisionally yours. The same principle is at work here.
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:28-31)
"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20, 21)
"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel." (Hebrews 12:23, 24)
Notice it refers to Christ's provision as the "blood of the covenant." It's contractual, we have a part in this and a responsibility to God. The good news is that God gives us everything we need to live up to our end with the strength and grace to overcome sin and live for Him and even the mercy to forgive our shortcomings but He still gives us a choice in this matter to serve Him or to serve sin. Now if we breach our contract or covenant with Him by choosing not to live for and serve Him, God is released from any obligation from promise that He has made. As is evidenced by the preceding verse in Hebrews, God does not take too lightly those who despise the covenant they've made with Him.
So the seal that God gives us is the mark that we're His and the earnest of our inheritance, but if we choose to break our covenant with Him, God Himself cuts us off from salvation (John 15:1-6 and Romans 11:17-22), which is His right and would be so even in the manner of human transactions.
So it is God Who puts His seal on us and it is also God Who has the right to remove it as well.
God bless. Rachael
Dawn,
"Rachael, do you think that if a person falls away (i.e., they have not lost their faith, but they are not really seeking God) for a long period of time say, several years, that they've lost their salvation?" I've seen God bring back those who have drifted from Him and even those who have lived in sin for a time both come back to Him. God is very merciful. However, the backslidden find themselves in a very precarious, very dangerous place. Scripture says, "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." and "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:1,2,6)
In the above passage we see that when a person no longer bears fruit and no longer abides in Christ, at some point God Himself cuts them off. When a person goes from the state of backsliddenness to completely falling away is something that God Himself determines and the Scripture doesn't offer very much explanation for. I would conjecture that it has to do with the heart and how cold it has become to God and the things of God. Beyond this, all that I do really know on that subject is:
On the issue of backsliding in the New Testament:
The letter to the church of Ephesus:
"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." (Revelation 2:2-5)
On the issue of falling away:
"For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8)
"If so, I guess they need to be born-again, again? Or do you think they have not really lost their salvation, rather, they simply need to repent?"
No, I do not believe that a backslidden person has to be born again for a second time but instead just must repent. Scripture addresses the subject of Christians who sin and clearly shows the need for repentance of those sins but there are none that ever talk about a person having to undergo yet another rebirth.
"What if a person dies in their state of backslidden-ness?"
Scripture does not seem to deal much with the issue of backsliding so what happens if a person dies in their backslidden state only God really knows; we just know that it is a very dangerous position to be in. Remember that the promise of eternal life is given to those who love God.
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21)
Note that in the same chapter that you were referrencing about the Spirit being a seal of salvation, it also says:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love..." (Ephesians 1:4)
"Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12)
"Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5)
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it." (2 John 1:6)
I wish that I could give you a more conclusive answer but from what I've seen, Scripture doesn't seem to reveal much more.
God bless. Rachael
Dawn,
I had to get rid of the Charles Finney blog. It was too much work, and did not generate many hits.
See ya!
Billy
Thanks Billy, I'll edit my original post.
Dawn,
"do you think that once someone has taken the mark of the beast that they can repent of it and still be saved?"
No, I don't believe that anyone who has taken the mark of the beast can still be saved. Let's look at the people who take this mark.
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:4-8)
So it would appear that everyone who is not saved by this point will worship the beast. To reiterate this point, here is their condemnation:
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." (Revelation 14:9-13)
Notice these verses:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." (Revelation 15:2) We don't see anyone here who has taken the mark or worshipped the beast.
Since this post is already getting long, I'll address the other questions in following posts. God bless. Rachael
Dawn,
"Or is their fate "sealed" once they've taken the mark? If their fate is "sealed" once they've taken the mark why is that?"
In my last post I talked about how population earth was divided between those who take the mark and worship the beast and those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 13:4-8) and about their eternal fates (Revelation 14:9-13 and Revelation 20:4-6).
For more perspective as to what is going on:
"[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) They received not the love of the truth that they might be saved...sounds like their heart was already hard to God and so God took away their good sense and allowed them to believe the lie.
The Bible does say that the people here are deceived by the beast's miracles (Revelation 19:20) but I believe they are fully aware of what is transpiring between the beast and God; it is just too overt to miss. It reminds me of the deception in the Garden of Eden when the serpent tells Eve that by eating the apple that she'll be just like God. Eve knew that eating the apple was the wrong thing to do, but believing the lie of the serpent of course she does anyway. I think that those who worship the beast and take the mark will be much the same; they know in their hearts that they're defying God, but they'll see the miracles and power of the beast and think very similarly: we've got someone here with the power to rival God!
The evidence of the beast's arrogant opposition of God is too overt to miss:
"...he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)
"...and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." (Daniel 8:24, 25)
"And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." (Daniel 7:25)
The beast kills the two witnesses obviously sent by God. (Revelation 11:3-14)
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:4-8) They worshipped the dragon?!?! The dragon is Satan! (Revelation 12:9, 20:2)
Yep, I'd say that describes a personal vendetta and outright war against God Himself and those who serve Him. And in the single greatest act of defiance to God ever:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful." (Revelation 17:14)
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Revelation 19:18-21)
The people who take this mark would have to know that they are taking the mark of a God-hater because the beast has been quite overt on this point. As stated before, God will have no tolerance and lenience for those who take that mark.
Last question in the next post. God bless. Rachael
"If you can break the seal of salvation, shouldn't you be able to break the seal of damnation?"
Maybe I've already made my answer to this question obvious in my previous posts, but if not, I'lll restate it briefly. Salvation's seal is broken by God to the unfaithful violators of the covenant and is therefore not removed by man. There is no seal of damnation; God chooses not to offer salvation to men who choose the mark. Hence, it is not a matter of there being a seal at all but a matter of God Himself decreeing that all who take that mark will be damned. The same God Who has given salvation to an undeserving people such as ourselves has that same right to decide when and to whom He will no longer offer it.
Hope that answers your questions. God bless. Rachael
I've never written on and have never spoken about theology on my own really, so this is all a pretty new experience for me. I hope I'm not being too pushy, but I rather see the issue of eternal security as an important one. Is it okay with you to continue discussing the issue? If so, would you like to discuss the Sciptures that you noted in your post as being influential in your decision towards eternal security? Are there any other questions that you have that you'd like to discuss with me (not that I feel like or claim that I have all the answers, but maybe sometimes I can give some perspective on some things)?
God bless. Rachael
Rachael,
I don't think you're being pushy at all. I think the issue is important too. One day I hope to thoroughly study the issue. The important thing for Christians to do no matter how they view the issue is to love God with all their hearts and to love their neighbor as themselves being doers of the word and not hearers only.
You quoted, ""According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love..." (Ephesians 1:4)"
I agree that we're to live holy lives, but I think this scripture is simply saying that those who are in Christ are seen by God as blameless and Holy because of the blood of Jesus (i.e., they have been justified).
I'm very much aware of all the scriptures you've quoted because I used to use them myself to prove one could lose their salvation. I'm sorry, but I'm just not driven at the moment to study them out to see if they're really saying one will lose their salvation.
Yes, I would like to read your interpretation of the scriptures I quoted. I have a feeling I know where you're going to go with one of them, but I'd still like to read what you have to say.
As for the seal, I've always envisioned it as like a wax seal (insignia) on an envelope, but I see that it does not necessarily mean that the stamp is an actual "seal", rather it can also be a mark or stamp as you stated. I know that the Jews used their stamp or mark like we use credit cards.
My point with Ephesians 1:4 was actually not just about us being holy and blameless because I would not dispute with you that it takes Christ's blood to make us clean, holy, righteous, etc., but that we are to walk before Him in love. I was trying to emphasize the necessity of continuing in our love for Him. Though a Scripture may emphasize one thing, it can say more than that one thing, and Ephesians 1 has a lot of material packed into one chapter.
What do you think Romans 8:28-30 means and how does this tie in with eternal security?
Hi Rachael, good to see you.
I think that Romans 8:28 means that God foreknew those who would believer. Those whom He foreknew would be called, would be justified, would fulfill their purpose in life and would ultimately be glorified. In other words, God would see the entire process through. He is ever interceding for us and I do believe His intercession is effective. (Romans 8:34) Jesus prayed for Simon Peter so that his faith would not fail. (Luke 22:31-32)
I do realize you would interpret it differently, but it is how I see it at this point.
If we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, what could cause us to lose that salvation?
Dawn,
Before I answer your question, I would ask, do you then contend that grace is irresistible? Of faith, how do you interpret all the Scriptures that tell us to hold fast to our faith, continue in our faith, warn against falling from the faith, etc.?
Dawn,
I wish I had realized you had a blog. I think your conversation with Rachael is great. I personally agree with Rachael as far as the possibility of apostasy. I have written a series on perseverance if you want to check it out soemtime. There is more to come but blogging is a little slow for me right now.
Just go to "labels" at my blog and click on "perseverance". I will defintely be adding a link to your blog at AP.
Rachael,
You need to start your own blog!
God Bless,
Ben
Rachael,
Yes, I believe grace to be irresistible.
At this point, I believe the reason for all the exhortations to continue in faith, to hold fast to our faith and to not fall from faith (I haven't looked them up) is that it is sin not to do so (Romans 14:23) and that there will be consequences maybe even unto physical death. Also, there will be a loss of rewards in heaven. I see it, too, as a warning to check oursevles to see if we are truly in the faith. Do we have a changed heart? We are to walk circumspectly and not as fools but as wise. Christ died once for sin and we are like him in the sense that we are born again only once. We died to sin and resurrected to life. (Romans 6:10-11) So this is how I see it without having studied it out properly.
So, if a person is able to lose their salvation, what of the christian who gets a divorce and remarries? Do they go to hell because they are now committing adultery?
Hey Ben! Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the link, though, mine is not much of a blog since I am very inconsistent in blogging.
I do intend to read your articles on perseverance at some point. I've been avoiding the issue for now because my obssession :-) is with total depravity, irresistible grace and unconditional election at the moment.
Rachael, I agree with Ben. You should start your own blog. You are articulate and knowledgeable in the word. I think it would really help to build your confidence in discussing your beliefs.
Another thing you could do is make comments on other blogs like Ben's and Billy's since they are prolific in their blogging and generate more traffic. Practice makes perfect. :-)
I am not saying that I do not want to continue in our discussion (or any future discussions) because I do want to continue. However, I feel you would do better to branch out and interact with others in the blogosphere. It can be intimidating, but that will help to grow and build your confidence and even sharpen your other skills.
I don't know if you are a computer whiz or not, but creating a blog is VERY easy. Blogger is user friendly and there are even help sections to guide you through any problems you may have.
I'm not trying to push you into creating a blog or commenting on other blogs before you are ready, but I just wanted you to know how easy it is to create a blog and how beneficial it would be to take a risk and comment elsewhere. Just be sure to not take all this too seriously and try not to get too emotionally involved. I've been guilty of both and still have to guard against it. Be prepared for some very rude and arrogant people so try not to stoop to their level. Most people are very civil and you will grow to love them as friends in the Lord.
Blogging has really helped me to be able to better define some of my beliefs and it has been helpful in correcting some of my doctrine.
Well, that's my two cents worth.
Dawn,
"Christ died once for sin and we are like him in the sense that we are born again only once."
I agree. Neither do I believe that a person does not have to be "reborn again" but after they've sinned repent for what sins they commit.
"...there will be consequences maybe even unto physical death. Also, there will be a loss of rewards in heaven."
Well, the consequences spoken of seem to indicate more than just "rewards" they mention "being burned," "fire," etc.
About your question: Some Christians commit this sin in ignorance and God is quite merciful to forgive. Other Christians do commit this sin as well knowing that they're sinning. If they will repent of the wickedness in their hearts and their disobedience to the commands of God, truly repent, then God will forgive them because God is merciful enough to forgive our backslidings. Even for serious sins such as these, losing one's salvation is not necessarily an automatic process.
Can I clairfy on one point, do you believe that grace is irresistible in the process of salvation as well?
Yes, I believe grace to be irresistible.
Dawn,
That is a very strange comment from a non-Calvinist. As far as I am concerned the moment you accept that grace is irresitible then you would have a very hard time not embracing the other 3 petals of the Calvinist TULIP, especially since you already hold to P.
Maybe I misunderstood you. Are you saying that grace is irresistible after conversion and find that as support for inevitable perseverance, or are you implying that prevenient grace is irresistible in the sense that God enables everyone to believe the gospel? If you are implying that God's saving or regenerating grace is irresistible, then I don't know how you can avoid being a Calvinist. That is really the crux of the controversy.
I hope that I have misunderstood you.
God Bless,
Ben
Oh my GOSH! Ben and Rachael. I totally miswrote! NO, NO, NO, I do not believe grace is irresistible. I believe it is REsisitible. I'm so sorry for causing confusing. I am totally NON-Calvinist and no longer mind being called an Arminian. Thanks for calling me on this.
Rachael,
You said, "Well, the consequences spoken of seem to indicate more than just "rewards" they mention "being burned," "fire," etc."
You quoted back on February 12, 2008 at 4:28 PM, ""Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life." (1 John 2:24, 25) and the verse I already quoted "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)"
We see that in I John 2:19 the ones who leave the faith were never really of the faith.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (emphasis added)
So in 2:24,25 we see that John is exhorting those who have heard the truth to continue in that truth and if they do so they will have eternal life. If they do not continue in the truth then they were never really born again in the first place.
Some people will appear to have the truth in them, but Jesus will say, "Depart from me, I "never" knew you." (Matthew 7:23) If Jesus had never known them then they were never truly born again. They were simply tares in the church.
To me, it goes back to the parable of the sower and the seed. These people were never truly born again because they never brought forth any mature fruit.
John 15:6 is basically saying the same thing. If one abides not in the Lord he will be cast into the fire. Judas was a branch in the tree, but he was never truly born again, was he? No, though he very much appeared to be of the flock of God until he was exposed for who and what he truly was.
Again, I see the people who fall away are ones who were never really and truly of the faith.
I've skimmed the first several comments, but don't have time to read all of them. So I am sorry if I repeat something that has already been said.
I do believe someone can lose their salvation (but do not ask me to defend myself here as I will not). However I do not really think it matters if one loses their salvation or if they were never really saved in the first. Whichever is true does that make the apostasy less severe or the hypocrisy more tolerable?
I won't say it is wrong to discuss the issue, or that there is not a proper place for it, but I do believe that the entire issue is semantical in essence. I mean, in the end, no matter which you believe, the same people will end up in heaven. I think that the church at large today focus on these issues so much that we forget the larger, definitely more important issue: the ultimate salvation of people and their new life in Christ.
May we, the church, stand together united in Christ reaching people for Him and not let petty differences divide us from our common goal. (which I am by no means saying you all are letting this hinder you in sharing the gospel, btw :-) )
Hey Dawn,
Maybe you know this already, but Arminians who beleive salvation can be forfeited also acknowledge the existance of false converts. We believ the Bible describes both.
The problem with trying to sat that those who fall away were all false converts doesn't fit with many of the warning passages. The passages I have examine at AP are some examples but there are plenty of others. Each passage needs to be examined in it's own context.
I personally have a problem with 1 John 2:19 as a proof text for false converts. It may be describing false converts but that cannot be determined by the text itself. The passage only tells us that these false teachers were not "of" the true teachers at the time of their leaving. It says nothing about their spiritual state prior to their "leaving". The passage does not say that they were "never" of the true teachers.
The context of Joh also creates problems with this interpretation. John is helping his readers know how they can identify true believers. He is also giving them grounds for assurance in their own salvation because some of them may have been persuaded by these false teachers that unless they followed their teachings (probably gnostic) then they were not saved and didn't really "know" God.
John lays down very practical definitions of what follows from genuine faith. There is no question that John beleived that a true believer could be recognized. It seems strange then that John would have been duped by these false teachers who went out from him. If they had never really been saved, why didn't John know it?
It could still be that these were false converts, but that doesn't change the fact that other passages seem to plainly speak of true believers abandoning the faith.
To me, it goes back to the parable of the sower and the seed. These people were never truly born again because they never brought forth any mature fruit.
Actually, I think the parable of the sower creates difficulty for your position. Luke 8:13 says that some "beleive for awhile" and that life results from this believing (a plant sprouts- verse 6). They fall away (from that faith) during times of temptation.
John 15 cannot refer to false converts because only true believers can be "in Christ" and only those who were in Him could be cut off from Him.
Just some food for thought.
God Bless,
Ben
Dawn,
First I want to say "thank you" for your advice and recommendations concerning blogs and blogging. I have been thinking of starting my own blog, if or when this materializes, I'll be sure to let you know. :-)
Returning back to our discussion:
"In other words, God would see the entire process through."
I agree wholeheartedly. God does see the entire process through, we see this several places in the Bible. I would contend, though from beginning to end, God gives us a choice in this process. He gives us grace to be saved, and He gives us grace to remain saved, but the choosing of this grace (or resisting thereof) is entirely up to us. "...all things work together for good to them that love God." So I agree that God sees the process through for those who continue in their love for Him, I belive it 100%.
A quick summary: "If we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, what could cause us to lose that salvation?"
Grace can be resisted and faith can be abandonned and made shipwreck.
"We died to sin and resurrected to life. (Romans 6:10-11)" I would not dispute with you that our nature has been changed. However, it is pretty apparent from this chapter and following chapters that we still indeed do have a sin nature that wars within us. God does give us the victory and the grace to overcome, but men have the choice whether they will accept this grace and continue in it or refuse this grace to live in sin.
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 12-14)
If they had never really been saved, why didn't John know it?
Because John is not God! in the end only God knows who is true and who is not, it seems that Sophie has the best take on it, in the end only true believers will make it. The idea that you have shown that a true believer can lose salvation is comical to say the least. Even a quick glance at your supposed posts show that you have not shown this to be true. Only a truly arrogant person would consider the matter settled.
Anonymous,
We are having a peaceful discussion about differing views on the Scripture; there is no need to bring a spirit of strive and divisiveness to the discussion. It has never ceased to amaze me that so many people can read the same book and come out with so many different interpretations. We discuss things to share what we believe is true and sometimes we come away knowing more and learning more. Either way in the end we should walk away as Christian brothers and sisters who love each other in the faith.
Hard to see what I wrote that would be cause for a spirit of strive and divisiveness. In fact, it would seem to me that this would apply more to you and Ben in this example:)
Perhaps you got offended with the bold text, but that was just to state the obvious if you would like I could re-type it without the bold text.
Anonymous,
'A quick glance' is obviously all you've taken at the posts here, your comments being the only thing coming across as comical thus far. While we're on the subject, what's a 'supposed post' anyway? If you're going to insinuate that others are 'truly arrogant,' then turn around and accuse them of being divisive, you have much bigger problems than soteriology.
J.C.
For a heretic you sure do get around.
It matters little what anyone says to you because you are always right. lol
In fact, hell will probably freeze over before you admit that you are wrong on anything.
Dear Anonymous,
A 'heretic'? Well, if I'm to be thus sentenced, I'd at least like to know the charge you have against me -- though if you have something to say, I ask that we take it elsewhere; at my site there's a 'Leave Feedback' section at the bottom.
Nice post, Ben. It expressed most of what I believe pretty well. Though I'm sure that Dawn is missing my much wordier posts :-) It is true that they could have been false converts who even duped John but I need not go into that as you already covered that quite well.
Thanks Ben and Rachael for your interpretations. I do see your points. At this time, I'm just not ready to agree or disagree one way or another. I just do not know for sure the correct answer to the question of whether or not someone can lose their salvation. Right now I want to focus on being His servant and loving Him and obeying Him. The main reason I wrote what I wrote in the original post was to basically say that while I agree with Arminians on 4 points, I do not agree on the 5th point. I lean very heavily on the side of eternal security, but I, in no way, agree with easy believism.
Ben, it could be that the people in the parable of the sower who believed for awhile were believing as the demons believe. I'm not saying that is the proper interpretation, but the thought crosses my mind for now until I take the time to study this for myself.
I rest in the fact that I am saved and I intend to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Anonymous, you are welcome here but only if you can be civil. It is OK to disagree, but please do so nicely.
I agree with Rachael that your post was divisive and full of strife. Your tone was condescending and arrogant. I do not like to delete posts, but I will not hesitate to delete posts which are rude and arrogant.
If you disagree with someone's post, please take the time to point out what it is you disagree with and why you disagree with it without the condescending tone.
Thanks,
Dawn
Rahael,
You said, "Though I'm sure that Dawn is missing my much wordier posts :-)"
I have not missed any of your wordier posts. I've read them all and some of them I have read more than once. And some of them I had started a response and did not finish because I just did not have it in me at that moment to try to explain my thinking. Like I have stated before, I'm simply not driven to defend my position (mostly because I'm not completely SURE of my position) or to study it out for myself. I totally and completely understand your position because I held it for the vast majority of my christian life. I've only been leaning (heavily) toward eternal security for a year or two.
Sophie, I agree that preaching to the lost should be our main priority. Thanks for stopping by.
Hi JC. Thanks for stopping by. I'm so glad you did because it made me realize that I had forgotten to add your site to the post (and my blogroll) and that you were a contributor at Ben's blog. Please forgive me.
Oh, I was just joking, Dawn, I was saying that Ben wrote so concisely on the subject that I was sure that you were disappointed by not having one of my novel-sized or mini-series posts to cover that subject instead. Unless you have any further Scriptures to discuss or questions to ask, I suppose I'll just give you some time and space to study the Scriptures for yourself at this time.
Until next time, God bless. Rachael
Rachael, I completely misread your sentence. I can see your true meaning now that you have pointed it out to me. :-)
Please be sure to let me know if you start your own blog. I look forward to future discussions whether on my blog or yours.
God Bless
Hello Anonymous,
If you have truly read all my posts and found them is as inadequate as you let on then I invite you to leave a comment expressing your objections at any one of those posts. I would be happy to address them.
God Bless,
Ben
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