A Bit of Humor

Please take a quick look at the following 20 second video before reading the rest of this post which continues after the video. Once you resume reading the rest of this post, keep what you have seen in the video in mind.

First, a little background for those who don't follow politics or live in a different country. President Obama wants to pass a questionable version of a healthcare reform bill which has become a heated and mostly partisan issue. In this portion of his speecch to Congress, Obama, a Democrat, is explaining what the bill will not do. Representative Joe Wilson, a Republican, shouts out, "You lie!" because he doesn't believe Obama is telling the truth. (Rep. Wilson later apologized to President Obama for his rude behavior.)





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One morning during the church service our Calvinist Pastor (we're Arminians) announced that he would soon be begin an expository teaching on the book of Romans. A minute later my husband hands me a note. It read:

"When he gets to Romans 9 you must refrain from shouting, "You Lie!""

Needless to say, I struggled to maintain my compsure going back and forth from a poker face to a smile for a few minutes. :-)

Please know that we LOVE, LOVE, LOVE our pastor. Hubby was just having a little fun.

Reasons To Remain A Calvinist

Keith Schooley, an Arminian, has extended an olive branch, so to speak, to our Calvinist brothers and sisters. He starts off:

As much as I disagree with Calvinism as an interpretive scheme for understanding soteriology, there are worse errors to fall into. As an olive branch to my brothers and sisters in Christ, I'd like to offer some valid reasons I can think of to remain within the Calvinist camp.

Read the entire article: Reasons To Remain A Calvinist

A Concise Exegesis of Romans 9

Romans chapter 9 is one of the biggest "proof texts" Calvinists use to bolster the idea that God has chosen to regenerate some while leaving others dead in their trespasses and sins. I have never interpreted Romans 9 in such a manner. I do, however, see how Calvinists view Romans 9 in such a way, but in doing so one must take this chapter completely out of context and disregard the entire history of the Jews and the actual context of the Old Testament scripures from which the apostle Paul quotes!

Thanks to one of the members of SEA for linking to this article on Romans 9 written by Christopher Skinner. I have not read all of Christopher Skinner's website so I cannot say that I agree with everything he has written, but I think he has done an excellent job of capturing the true essence of what Paul was trying to convey in this brief essay on Romans 9.

If you do not believe this is a proper interpretation of Romans 9, then please explain where and why you disagree.

Enjoy!

Society of Evangelical Arminians

It is with much excitement that I announce the new website Society of Evangelical Arminianism which officially launched Wednesday, April 9, 2008! What a blessing it will be to have an official and much needed presence for the Arminian/non-Calvinist position. There are many qualified contributors, including first rate scholars. I hope you will bookmark the (SEA) site and make it a regular read.

JC Thibodaux

I neglected to mention another blogger that I respect and am blessed to have discovered. JC Thibodaux is a contributor to Ben Henshaw's blog Arminian Perspectives and he has his own web site In Death or Life.

UPDATE: While I am at it I should also mention another good resource for the Calvinism vs. Arminianism controversy. Richard Coords has a site dedicated to this debate called Examining Calvinism

Some Great Blogs I've Discovered

A few months ago I discovered some really great blogs. Having read them over the months, I find their theology to be exegetically sound; though, I disagree with their belief that a person can lose their salvation. I understand where they are coming from because I once believed salvation could be lost. I have not read their teachings on this particular issue because I am more concerned right now with their teachings on total depravity, unconditional election and irresistible grace. I am happy to agree to disagree with these fine gentlemen on eternal security.

Ben Henshaw's blog is called Arminian Perspectives

Billy Birch maintains two blogs:

Classical Arminianism
The Green Gospel

Roy Ingle's blog is called Arminian Today

Enjoy!

To Repent Or Not To Repent - Part IV

Here is part four of the series To Repent Or Not to Repent - Part IV.

If you would like to skip ahead, feel free.

I especially liked this part.

By TJ Pennock

Sinners do not suddenly one day decide to repent, to turn from unbelief to belief, from rebellion to redemption. No Scripture anywhere says unbelievers can muster up their own repentance. It's not something they can well up within themselves. It's not self generated. In fact, the Bible draws a rather bleak picture of unsaved sinners. They are dead (Eph. 2:1), blind (2 Cor. 4:4), unrighteous (Ro. 3:10), unconcerned (Ro. 3:11), natural (1 Cor. 2:14), darkened (Ro. 1:21), reprobate (Ro. 1:28), foolish (Titus 3:3), disobedient (Titus 3:3), deceived (Titus 3:3), and unregenerate (John 3:3,5). The description goes on (Mk. 7:21-23; Ro. 1:29-31; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; Titus 3:3), but the point is clear.

Though there are numerous incentives to repentance (Acts 17:29-31; Ro. 2:4), the ultimate cause is the Holy Spirit. Apart from His conviction ministry (John 16:7-11), a work that reaches the inner sanctum of sinners, there can be no repentance. He and He alone convinces men of sin, opens their eyes, and enables them to repent. Only He can empower spiritually dead sinners to receive Christ. To be sure, Jesus is the Light of the world; and it's the Spirit's ministry to enable the lost to see that Light (Acts 26:18; cf., 2 Cor. 4:4).

Here are several passages describing the Spirit's conviction ministry in sinners. The first is the chief text. We also give two "draw" passages, believing they, too, speak of this peculiar work of conviction. (John 16:7-11; John 6:44,45; John 12:32)

Let's be clear about the Spirit's conviction (John 16:7-11), for it's the taproot of genuine repentance, and the salvation of all sinners rests with it (John 6:44,45). When we speak of conviction, we are talking about the Spirit's influence in the hearts of unbelievers that enables them--apart from regeneration--to see, feel, and understand their need of Christ.

Conviction is not regeneration, as some would hold. Nor is it always efficacious, as some would wish (Gen. 4:6,7; Mt. 22:3; 23:37; John 5:38-40; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1; Gal. 2:21; Heb. 4:6; 10:29; 12:15). Rather, conviction is just that, conviction--the work of the Spirit in the hearts of dead sinners (Eph. 2:1) that convinces them of their unbelief and need of Christ and enbles them to embrace the gospel. That's conviction. And apart from it, "No man can come to [Christ]" (John 6:44).

Calvinists Say They Believe In Choice

Quote from a Calvinist:

"I see every person as having a choice and leave the election part of it to God."

While I respect my Calvinist friend's statement I must reject the logic within that statement.

Calvinists believe that sinners have a choice when it comes to responding to the gospel but that sinners are incapable of responding in a positive manner causing them to always choose sin rather than salvation. Therefore, God elects (or chooses) some to salvation while leaving others to die in their sins.

Is that really a choice? I say, No. For to have a choice one must truly be able to respond to the gospel in either direction: positively or negatively.

I agree with my good Calvinist friend(s) that man does have a choice in the matter of salvation and that God only elects some to salvation. I don't, however, agree with their premise that God elects unconditionally (i.e., for reasons only God Himself knows) or that man will always choose sin over salvation. God elects or chooses for salvation those who will put their faith/belief in Him through Christ Jesus. (John 1:12-13; 3:15)

The Calvinist's whole system of soteriology (TULIP) is predicated upon man's so-called inability to respond to the gospel because man is "dead in trespasses and sin," man is a "slave to sin" and man is "under the rule of Satan." While these conditions plaguing mankind are true they do not render him incapable of responding to the gospel because God has graced us with that ability and He is drawing mankind to Himself.

This death that Paul speaks of is a spiritual death. (Romans 5:12) The only action mankind is rendered incapable of is a relationship with God. God says that those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:24) Man cannot truly worship God unless his spirit is made alive through Christ. (John 3:3)

Man's heart (i.e., intellect/mind, will and emotions) is not dead and is not incapable of understanding his need for a Savior. That is why we have the law. The law was never meant to save mankind, rather it was meant to point man to his need of a Savior (Jesus/God come in the flesh) by showing man he was guilty of sin and destined to hell for breaking God's law. If man breaks even one law he is guilty of breaking all the law. (James 2:10) Jesus paid the penalty for man's sin. (I John 2:2) The gospel is offered to all of mankind and man must accept that offer of salvation by placing his faith/belief in Christ Jesus. That is not to say that man's heart will always be receptive to the gospel. We know that pride and the love of self are ultimately the cause of a man's heart becoming hardened toward God (along with other complex factors), but only God knows how a man's heart becomes SO hardened that he will not receive the gospel. (God also hardens a man's heart, but man first hardens his own heart.)

I agree with my Calvinist friends that man does not have the power in and of himself to be freed from Satan and sin. That power can only come from God through Jesus once man places his faith/belief in Jesus. (John 1:12)

Words and phrases in the bible like: believe, trust, seek, repent, reason, persuade(d), convince(d), study, search, will not, would not, whosoever (will), anyone, etc., not only imply ability, but they also refute the idea of 100% irresistiblity and the idea that man cannot respond positively to the gospel.

Also, scriptures like the one below show me that a man dead in his sins is capable of responding to the gospel. I don't believe God would try to persuade men who are dead in their sin to receive the gospel if they were incapable of doing so. Surely this attempt at persuasion isn't pure rhetoric? (The entire bible is full of such accounts of persuasion.)

John 10:37-39 "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

If it is true that "dead" means "incapable," a person who's spirit has been made to come to life by Christ would be "incapable" of committing sin since he is now "dead to sin." (Romans 6:2, 11-14; Colossians 3:3; I Peter 2:24) And we know that Christians are quite capable of sinning.

As an aside: I have to wonder if the word "elect" is what trips up some to believe that it means anything other than "chosen." The words "chosen" and "elect" are synonymous just as Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are one and the same. Who does God choose (elect) for salvation? Those who believe.

Did God Create Evil? & Thoughts on Calvinism

Thanks to Rose for the head's up on this excellent blog post on Dr. McArthur's Theodicy.

I think John R.'s comments on Calvinism are excellent. And, I certainly understand his concern with the idea that God created evil, but I do believe He did. God is the only one who can create, right? Though, I do not believe God is the cause of evil. I believe the cause lies within the freewill and natural causes of God's creation.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I've heard other theologians try to explain how evil came about and that it is merely the opposite of obedience to God. It is the negative of the positive. But that just doesn't ring true to me.

Could I be wrong?

What Does It Mean To Be Dead?

Here is what I think to be a most excellent exposition on the biblical term "dead in sin".

Liver And Onions

Thanks to Rose for the heads-up on this blog: Liver and Onions. I haven't read it all, but from what I've read so far his posts on Calvinism are spot on!

Calvinist vs. Non-Calvinist Discussion Redux

If you're not tired of the whole Calvinist vs. Non-Calvinist topic, Eye has continued the discussion over at his blog.

Are You An Extreme Calvinist?

Unconditional Election and Stargates

Limited Atonement--Continuation of Extreme Calvinism Articles

Enjoy!

Some Interesting Reads & Discussions

Rose, over at Rose's Reasonings, has some excellent (and civil) discussions going on about the Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist controversy. She is focusing in on the "faith" aspect of salvation. It is a long discussion, but well worth the read.

Those discussions can be found at the following links:

What's Faith? Part 1

What Is Faith? Part 2 Is Faith A Gift?

What Is Faith? Part 3

What Is Faith? Part 4

What Is Faith? Part 5


Eye has posted a rather revealing article by an ex-Calvinist.


Leo has an interesting post on contraception which I haven't had a chance to comment on yet, but hope to do so soon.

Thanks guys for some great reads and discussion!

A Limited Atonement?

I've responded to Nathan's post about Limited Atonement over at Daniel's blog. See his Monday, January 30, 2006 entry: Are you sure that you want to say it like that? entry.

[I brought this post here so that it would be easier to access and for posterity.]

Nathan: “Judging us to be in error and not seeking reconciliation is a characteristic of the Pharisees.”

Why do you write such caustic words? Can you not just agree to disagree without always charging people of being something they are not or doing things they have not done? First we’re not humbling ourselves and now we’re Pharisees. Can you please lay off the ad hominem? I don’t believe that any one of us who disagrees with you is in ANY way Pharisaical. Please Stop.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe someone just doesn't have the time to pursue a rebuttal, but wants to voice their dissent?

It’s one thing to challenge us, it is completely another to slander or belittle us.

I will attempt to “seek reconciliation.”

Nathan: "If we are wrong, by all means show us!”

Mark 16:15; Luke 2:10,30-32; John 3:16; Romans 5:18, 11:32; 2 Cor 5:14-15; I Tim 2:1-6,4:10; Heb 2:9; Titus 2:11-12; II Peter 2:1.

Nathan: “Again, why do we 'force' our understading into the text and determine that 'world' in 1John 2:2 cannot mean all without exception? Because taking world to mean everyone:

A) Is inconsistent with a plethora of other passages (detailing the nature of the atonement and whether Christ actually accomplished anything in His death)."

Jesus accomplished the means of salvation for every man/whosoever will. He was THE passover lamb, right? Just as those who applied the blood on the lintel posts in Egypt were spared physical death, those who are covered in/apply Jesus' blood by believing and receiving Him are spared spiritual death. The passover meal was open to anyone (Jew or Gentile) who would commit to the God of the Israelites and be circumcised. A commitment first and then a circumcision. (Exodus 12)

Please provide the scripture from the OT where it states that those who were saved by looking ahead to the Messiah were given saving grace first.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will accept His gift. So the atonement is limited only insofar as one must believe and receive Him for the atonement to be effective. That doesn’t in any way cause His death to be in vain. If only ONE person accepted Jesus out of all the world, His death would still not be in vain. The only way it would be in vain is if no one ever accepted His death. But please feel free to provide the scripture which states that Jesus' death is in vain if He died for everyone, but not everyone will accept that atonement.

As an aside, Abraham was not circumcised when He “believed” God and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham believed and then he was circumcised. Right? And that is how the NT teaches it. Repent + Believe/Faith + Receive = Saving Grace. God gives us a new heart upon our receiving the Lord’s gift of grace. The word of God by the Spirit of God renews our minds/hearts.

Nathan: "B) Is inconsistent with basic logic and rational."

It is only inconsistent with the logic and rationale of Calvinists. It is perfectly consistent, logical and rational to what the word of God teaches. And that is that salvation is available to every man (i.e., whosoever believes/faiths). Jesus died for all (Heb 2:9), but only those who believe and receive will have their sins atoned.

Nathan: "C) Is inconsistent with the actual meaning of the word 'propitiation'."

Please tell us what propitiation actually means since you think we don't seem to understand it.

Nathan: "E) Ignores the many other uses of the term -in the same book and by the same author- where world does not mean every man without exception."

It depends upon the context.

Nathan: "F) Is easily reconcilable with John 11:49"

So. John 11:49 is merely honing in on the fact that the atonement is only effective to those who believe and receive which is something that will happen to men from every part of the world. This scripture doesn't hurt my position, but rather affirms it.

Nathan: "G) Affirms what every true Christian believes (but will not always admit): that there is a limit to who Christ died for -otherwise all men would be saved."

I admit that the atonement is only effectual to those who believe and receive the Lord. But Jesus’ death was the propitiaton that was made available to all men (whosoever will). Calvinists have made up the part that Jesus' death requires all men to be saved if He died for all men.

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Luke 2:10,14 “And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.”

1 Timothy 2:1-6 “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

All emphasis added to the scriptures.

Nathan: “I just blogged about this recently and I argued that we must understand the intent of the atonement before we understand the extent. That is, if Christ actually accomplished anything by His death, then we must put a limit on it. So your options are: Christ did not actually save anyone, thus you would agree with the Roman Catholics that 'grace' must be added to by our merit. OR, you must affirm that Christ did accomplish something in His death, thus if He died for all then all will be saved.”

OR, we can go with what the word of God actually states and know that Jesus died for all and only those who believe and receive will have their sins atoned.

Nathan “Do you guys realize that you are agreeing with the Catholic view of the atonement? That is, Christ did 99% of the work, but our obedience here on earth determines whether you can appropriate that 99%?”

Do you realize that we do NOT agree with the Catholic view of atonement? Do you realize that Calvinists have just made up this so-called 99/1 % ratio? Do you realize that faith is not a work? Do you realize that it is 100% of God’s grace that saves us when we believe and receive because we have no power within us to save ourselves and that NONE of us deserves to be saved? Do you realize that God LOVES everyone?

Nathan: “Have the Catholics gotten this right?”

No.

Eye on Good Deeds of the "Lost"

A poster named Eye has responded to a portion of Nathan's response to my "Rightly Dividing The Word of Truth" blog post. I think Eye has made some very good points so I've brought them here as a blog post. Hopefully Nathan, or anyone else who holds to Calvinism, will respond.

Here are Eye's first comments on total depravity.

Here is Eye's comment:

Dawn,

I read in one of Nathan’s previous posts some things that didn’t square with Scripture. Since you and I are discussing Cornelius, I thought I would take the liberty to review one of Nathan’s comments in light of Acts 10.

Nathan said: “Furthermore, your example of ‘lost’ people performing good deeds is a little ridiculous. Any deed that is done out of a heart that is not submitted to Christ is not a good deed –it is from selfish motives. Someone who has elevated something else above Christ (they have not submitted to Him as Lord and savior) does good deeds only for whatever else is elevated above Christ: namely self.”

Interesting comment from Nathan in light of the fact that Cornelius, after Pentecost, as an unregenerated man (the Calvinist must prove by Scripture he was regenerated), actually did do good deeds – see Acts 10:2 ‘A devout man, and one that feared God with his entire household, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.’

Wow – let’s see what the Bible says about Cornelius. Sounds to me like Cornelius had more going on in the ‘good deed’ categories than most so-called Christians I know! He was ‘devout’, oh and he feared God, and not only him but his entire household, and let’s not forget that he gave ‘much alms’ to the people. Now that’s a good deed, and I dare say there were no tax deductions in that day so he was most likely giving of his wealth with no strings attached right off the top. Most impressive indeed -- now I submit that Cornelius did these things because he ‘feared’ God. Cornelius was seeking after God as an unregenerated man. The Calvinist must imply that he was regenerated because it is clearly not in the text. Moreover, as we established from Acts 10 in the previous post, God sent an angel to Cornelius to confirm that his prayers and alms came up for a memorial before God. I do believe praying to God and giving alms to the poor are considered good deeds – just ask any first grader.

Acts 10:3-4 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Now here’s where it gets interesting. The above referenced passage says that Cornelius was afraid. Notice the angel did not say ‘fear not’ to him. I believe the Scripture is clearly affirming the fact that Cornelius is not regenerated, and obviously not saved – and this is after the Cross and Pentecost. Based on the Calvinistic construct you must first be regenerated so that you can then place faith in Jesus so that you then can become born again. There are numerous other places in Scripture where people are confronted by angels and those who are in covenant with God are told they need not fear. However, in this case, there was no ‘fear not’ issued. Those who are estranged from God are left in their fear, because ‘fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’ Proverbs 9:10. Therefore I humbly submit that Cornelius was not born again yet, nor was he regenerated. Now, let’s check out this verse.

Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

This verse in Romans 1:16 clearly states that the ‘gospel of Christ’ is the POWER (dunamis – superantural power of God; we get dynamite from the root dunamis) of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (believeth -- pistus in Greek – same word as faith). What’s incredibly interesting to me based on this verse is the fact that the Bible says the gospel of Christ is the power or catalyst that gets one saved, not some mystical or ‘secret work of regeneration’ that occurs prior to someone placing faith in Jesus. I’ve yet to find that teaching anywhere in clear Scripture. Actually the opposite is what the clear teaching of Scripture states. We must first place our faith in Jesus before we can be born again. Please see this Scripture:

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Now the word power (EXOUSIA) is indeed a very interesting word in the Greek – please see Strong’s definition below. For brevity, I stopped after the 3 point – it continues in detail beyond…

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
a) leave or permission
2) physical and mental power
a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

This clearly teaches that the new birth is conditioned upon you receiving Jesus Christ. To qoute one old preacher, “There is not a case in the history of the universe where any man was ever ‘born again’ until he received Jesus Christ, and to say that total depravity extends to acts of the will is nonsense.” EXOUSIA pretty much confirms that – see definition above. First you must ‘receive’ Him, and then He gives you the power to become the sons of God. You don’t receive in a vacuum; again just study Cornelieus’ testimony as outlined in the Scripture.

Nathan – in case you read this, don’t you realize that John 6 is before the Cross and prior to Pentecost? In other words, it is still technically during the Old Covnenant. I don’t believe the Scripture supports the idea that any ‘Old Covenant’ saint was ever regenerated before placing their faith God. We do know that Abraham was saved because Galatians 3:6 says so. So, he here is an example of a man that was ‘Old Covenant’ saved by believing (FAITHING) the promise that Messiah would come and He would become sin who knew no sin. 2 Corinthians 5:14 – 21 clearly teaches ‘that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them’. Again in John 6, Jesus is specifically addressing his ‘chosen’ disciples and the Jews in that passage. Moreover, have you ever ‘seen’ Jesus with your two eyes like the people who were beholding him during that famous passage? John 6:40 says that everyone that ‘seeth’ the Son and believeth on Him, him will He raise up at the last day. I haven’t seen any Calvinist with enough honesty to preach that – literally seeing and believing ensures you are resurrected. To take this chapter and clearly build a construct and apply it to the entire counsel of Scripture is foolish. We do see where Jesus later confronts Thomas and tells him in John 20 that there will be those who do believe in Him and they haven’t had the ability to ‘see’ Him! Will they be resurrected? Of course they will!

Selah…

Excellent post, Eye!

Eye on Total Depravity

A poster named Eye has made some very astute comments on my "Rightly Dividing The Word of Truth" blog post that I think bear repeating.

Here are Eye's comments:

Dawn,

Thanks for the opportunity to post a comment. I’ve read your posts and I thank God for your stand for the Truth of His Word. I too have looked into this ‘raging’ debate around the systematic theologic construct commonly called ‘Calvinism’. Yes, the debating is centuries old and it will most likely continue until the LORD returns. However, one of the articles I read recently on this topic by a man who is now a former Calvinist struck a chord in me that continues to resonate. He said that if you can cast doubt on the Calvinist’s definition of ‘total depravity’ – that is, man is incapable of searching the things of God, much less exercising his free will to follow God or choose the things of God, then you can topple the rest of the construct. Let me hasten to add that God’s Holy Spirit will lead us into His Truth if we submit ourselves to Him. With that, if I may, I’ll offer acouple of passages and a few comments around them. The first is from the beginning of God’s creation shortly after the fall of Adam and Eve and the second is right after Pentecost. If you will, at the very beginning of the two Testaments!

Genesis 4:3-13
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Did you see it? God actually singled out a ‘totally depraved’ man – Cain – and confronted him over his offering and his attitude. God also lovingly ‘challenges’ Cain (and I humbly submit that one can easily see God provides Cain with a choice). The choice is to ‘doest well’ as the KJB says and if Cain does the right thing regarding his offering to the LORD, the LORD promises him that he will be accepted by God. Amazing, a ‘totally depraved’ man is faced with a ‘choice’ to seek and obey God or not to seek Him and as a result he disobeys Him. We know the rest of the story – Cain made the wrong choice. Cain had a body and a soul and his spirit was dead as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve. Truly he was a sinner in need of a savior. God told Adam and Eve, who in turn had told their children, about God’s plan (Genesis 3:15). I humbly submit that I believe God must have informed them of His desire for a sacrificial system which Abel obviously believed and followed. Abel obeyed and Cain did not – Cain chose to do it his way.

The nuggets I glean from this passage are that even in the beginning of earth’s history, shortly after sin entered into the human race, God was actively persuing His creation. God personally encounters Cain in love and with His holy conviction. God does not force or make Cain do anything. He simply holds him accountable for his actions and He asks him to ‘contemplate’ his sinful state (disobeying the understood proper sacrifice methodology). God’s dealing with Cain is motivated by His desire to see Cain ‘do well’ and follow God. It can’t be any clearer. Cain had a choice, yes even as a ‘totally depraved’ man – a choice to follow God. But yet, the Calvinist rejects the idea that a totally depraved man can do such a thing!

John Piper’s qoute from Monergism.com on Total Depravity, “In summary, total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.”

I ask a simple question. Did not God ask Cain to reform, or better yet repent of his sin and ‘choose’ to “doest well”? The resounding answer is YES! Then God, who created frail man certainly knows our limitations and capabilities. Why would God ask His creation to do something He knows they can’t possibly do – to follow the Calvinistic argument of total depravity? Absolutely makes no sense does it? Then I humbly submit that God put Cain to a test that He knew the outcome of, but He still gave Cain a choice. We don’t know how long Cain wrestled with this, but we do know he failed. Again, a totally depraved man had a choice to make regarding God!

I also submit an early Church example right after Pentecost at the beginning of the Church and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit – Cornelius.

Acts 10: 1-4
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Notice once again that a totally depraved man is ‘seeking’ God! That’s not supposed to be happening according to our Calvinist friends. Get this, his prayers and alms were actually recognized by God, so much so, He summonsed an angel to inform Cornelius.

Acts 10: 22
And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee."

Again, a totally depraved man that actually ‘feareth God’!

Acts 10:30 - 35
And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Notice above that a totally depraved man fears God and get this – he is also working righteousness! And, let’s don’t forget he is also accepted by God.

Acts 10:44
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Finally, we see that Cornelius heard the Gospel and was saved along with his household. I’m unable to find any reference in these straight forward passages to regeneration prior to placing faith in Jesus! If it’s there, the Calvinist must prove it.

My apologies for the long post, but this has been on my heart for some time! Keep up the good work and fight the good fight.

In Him,

Eye

Eye, I can agree with Piper's definition of total depravity; however, because of the grace of God He doesn't leave us in that depravity. We are totally depraved because of being born with a sin nature, but God has given us all enough grace to stave off the total part of our depravity. It is what we do with His grace that determines how God will deal with us individually, he either hardens us or sheds more light on us. Some he hardens more than others. I think that is because of what they have allowed to cultivate in their hearts, though He does continue to draw. (Please feel free to point out the error in my thinking as I believe discussion helps us to learn from each other.) I do seem to recall a scripture where he does cease to draw, but I can't remember what it is. And it may be something that I've misinterpreted. I find it very odd that the Calvinist agrees that God's grace is prevalent in every way...BUT NOT when it comes to salvation? The most IMPORTANT part of our lives?

Like you pointed out in the account of Cain and Abel, God's grace is extended to us ALL. He shows us that grace throughout the entire bible! He allows things to happen to us, as sinners (and even when we're His children), so that we will cry out to Him and lean on Him. It is absurd to think that because we're spiritually dead that that means we cannot understand that there is hell to pay if we don't choose the path to righteousness, or that we cannot choose to stay out of hell.

Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

Several months ago Nathan and Andrew were kind enough to provide me with scripture which they feel prove the doctrines of Calvinism. The discussion can be read here, here and here. I've studied the scriptures provided and have finally taken the time to repsond, though I do plan to make at least one more post on the subject which hopefully will be a little more cohesive.

My response to the latest discussion:

Let me preface this post by saying that when I type in all caps I am not yelling; I am merely emphasizing my point, so please take it in the spirit in which it is meant. Thank you.

Also, any emphasis to the scripture is added.

Nathan: “First off, we do choose to ‘accept Jesus’, but only after He changes our will so that we then desire spiritual things. We are unable to perform or desire spiritual things until God grants us a new nature which in turn grants us the ability for faith and repentance."

That is not completely true. We have the God-given ability to choose right from wrong and have faith enough to believe in God. (John 1:9; Romans 1-2, 12:3 (more on this later); John 12:46-48) We are all born with a conscience which is the law of God written on our hearts (Romans 2:15). We are dead in sin, but that does not mean that we cannot make a decision to do good. It simply means that our spirit is dead and that we cannot fully understand the things of God or enter the kingdom until we are born of God. Our soul (mind, will and emotions, in other words our heart) is NOT dead; therefore, we can make good decisions. I understood that I was going to Hell if I did not accept Jesus and I didn’t accept Him right off the bat, though I KNEW better. I was dead in sin. I was also a slave to sin. That doesn’t mean that I could not ask for HELP from Jesus Christ to get out of sin and to avoid Hell. There was no POWER within ME that could revive my spirit or keep me from being a slave to sin. That’s all that means. It doesn’t mean that we don’t have the ability to recognize and choose the means to get ourselves out of sin and avoid Hell. I agree that after God has given us a new spirit that we will desire and understand the things of the spirit. But HE first draws us (no autonomy here) and He has given us the ability to accept or reject him: see below. Why would God need to DRAW us if there were not some sort of decision to be made on the part of the person? Why not just QUICKEN OUR SPIRITS?!

None of us is good because we are judged by God’s standards. And yes, we are truly depraved in the eyes of a Holy and Righteous God, but being truly depraved does not mean that we cannot do good. (It is our so-called righteousness that is as filthy rags, thus the need for a savior. Our righteousness is ONLY through the applied blood of Jesus Christ.) Ted Bundy was able to do good and he was about as depraved as they come. Like I’ve stated before, if we can choose not to murder or steal, then we can certainly choose to follow the Lord Jesus when he draws us. I’m not saying that WE are good for we are not. But we DO have the ability to accept or reject Jesus. If we did not then he would not command us to repent or say that IF we would believe on Him we would have eternal life. OF HIS OWN VOLITION, God leaves the choice up to us.

John 12:46-48 “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Acts 7:51 “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

Proverbs 1:24-33 “Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.”

John 5:38-40 “And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”

You have twisted the word of God to mean what you want it to mean by stating that we cannot choose God without first being born of God. You do that because you believe that God has predestined people to heaven or hell due to their so-called "inability" to make a good choice. So everything is predicated upon that doctrine; a doctrine which is inherently and patently false. Being born of God is to be born again which only happens once someone has received and believed on Jesus. John 1:12-13 explains this very well.

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them GAVE he power TO BECOME the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

ANYONE (God is no respecter of persons and God died for the WHOLE world) who RECEIVES God, God GIVES them the POWER to BECOME the sons of God. It doesn’t say that one must be born of God FIRST. Saying otherwise, now THAT would be eisegesis. The part that says, “nor of the will of man” doesn’t mean what you try to make it out to be. It simply means that through our own wills we CANNOT (meaning we have not the POWER to) make ourselves sons of God. The power is simply not in us, that is what God must GIVE us. Let the reader understand.

You say that John 1:9 doesn’t mean that the light that shines on every man that comes into the world is the light that Jesus gives in order for us to have a measure of faith, then what does it mean? (I see you’ve answered this question further down and I have responded further down.) He is the light which shines throughout our darkness. THAT is the point. Those who love darkness REFUSE to see or come to the light. They KNOW God exists, but they reject Him and are “without excuse.” How can man be "without excuse" if he has no ability to choose? He can't, not if God is a just God, and He certainly IS a just God.

Romans 12:3 is talking about faith IN GENERAL which encompasses the faith it takes to believe AS WELL AS the faith it takes to use the gifts God has given His believers. Even if the context is only speaking of the faith in accordance to the gifts (and I don’t think it is), the statement is ALSO true for faith in general. Romans 1:17 speaks of degrees of faith. And we know that faith comes by hearing the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

There are myriad scirptures which state that we have the ability to choose, to seek and to call upon the Lord without having first been born of God. I will list those in my next post.

Nathan: “Why did these Jews not understand the truth Jesus was speaking? He says the He speaks truth and because they were not of God they could not understand Him. He didn’t say they couldn’t hear God because they WOULD not hear God, He says they couldn’t hear God because they were NOT ‘of God’, or in other words, born of God.”

They did not understand because they chose not to believe Jesus to be the Messiah. They were not "of God" because they chose not to believe on whom God sent to be the Messiah. (Matthew 13:15) There are many people who believe in God but who do not believe Jesus to be God come in the flesh. It is when they BELIEVE Jesus is the only way to salvation that they can THEN become the sons of God as shown in John 1:12-13. BELIEF from their God-given ability (the light that lights every man i.e., God has shown them: Romans 1:19) must come FIRST. God allows us to choose whether or not to believe (It is stated throughout the entire Bible). Their hearts were evil and they were religious. They thought just because they were born of Abraham (physically) that they were Godly people when they were only religious. God didn’t make them that way, they did it to themselves. Those who choose to disbelieve cannot understand the things of God.

So to recap: They first WOULD NOT hear and BECAUSE they would not hear they COULD NOT hear. God kept their eyes and their ears closed upon their choosing to NOT hear and choosing to NOT believe. God did not close their eyes and ears first.

Matthew 13:15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

But of course your stance is that God arbitrarily chooses whom he gives belief to and that it is not given to every man. That is not what the Bible teaches. That interpretation is one of eisegesis and not one of exegesis. God loves the WHOLE world and He would that NONE should perish. NONE. That means NONE of mankind. US. US=Mankind, not just believers. Remember Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him because they knew not what they had done? Who killed Jesus? The Jews that rejected Him along with the Romans. He STILL loves them and does not want them to perish, but rather wants them to repent! (Ezekiel 18:21-32)

[Edited to clarify and correct part of the first sentence in the above paragraph. It should read:

But of course your stance is that God arbitrarily chooses whom he gives belief to and that He does not give faith to every man. That is not what the Bible teaches.]

Ezekiel 18:32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Nathan: “If this is a man-made doctrine, why does Jesus say that ‘all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me’? Is there the possibility that the Father will give someone to the Son and that one will fail to come to the Son?

No, like the scripture states, the Father gives to Jesus all who hear and learn of Him. (John 6:45) Those aspects are key. The parts that are man-made are the notions that God is arbitrary in his selection and that man has no freewill when it comes to accepting or rejecting Jesus. Calvinists always assert that God chooses whom HE will to go to heaven or hell out of His own good pleasure and for no apparent reason. That is NOT what the scripture teaches. It teaches that out of His good pleasure He chose to provide a way of salvation for mankind even though man does not deserve it. A way of salvation is His good pleasure, not that He sends people to heaven or hell. He LOVES us ALL.

Nathan: “Since the bible says we are dead in sins and then Christ awakens us to the light, this analogy works perfect for those who are humble enough to accept it.”

I’ll humble myself and just let that jab go.

Nathan: “So we have freewill to give ourselves physical life? No, we cannot choose to give ourselves physical life. So then, if you are consistent with yourself (in the above statement), then you must affirm that we do not have the freewill to give ourselves spiritual life. Man is DEAD in his sins, and can do nothing but sin. Why would the scriptures repeatedly say we are dead if we are in fact only injured?

I affirm that we do not have the power to give ourselves spiritual life. Do we have the ability to choose spiritual life? YES! Freewill to choose to receive spiritual life is very different from actually giving spiritual life and that is where Calvinists err.

We ARE dead spiritually, but we are not dead mentally. It is our spirits which must be raised so that our souls can have true life!

Nathan: “Man’s will is enslaved to sin until we are granted spiritual life.”

True, but that does not mean that we cannot choose to want out of that enslavement. You are inserting your beliefs into the biblical teachings. Again, we have the ability to not commit murder, so we certainly have the ability to choose to accept the love of Jesus who will free us from that BONDAGE of sin once we are shown through the law that we are indeed sinners and that we are in need of a savior in order to escape the penalty of hell.

Why would the bible say that the law is our schoolmaster if we are not able to see that we are evil and that we NEED a savior?

Nathan: “Paul is not talking about his response to Christ in the matter of salvation. He is talking about his obedience to PREACH the resurrected Jesus.”

Touché.

Nathan: “There is nothing in the passage to suggest that God forsees anything or that the Father gives those who ‘accept Him’. The text says exactly the opposite! You are inserting your own beliefs into the text, not getting it out of the text, and that is called isegesis.”

Believe on Him means to accept Him! Does it not?!

I know very well what eisegesis is and that is what Calvinism (total inabilty/irresistible grace/predestination) is based upon. I was referring to John 6:64-65 which explains 6:37-42. This could be a word of knowledge, though God does have foreknowledge of EVERYTHING. I don’t know if this scripture is saying that Jesus knew from the beginning of when He began His ministry or from the beginning of the foundation of the world. Now that I’m thinking about it is probably since His ministry because Jesus (as a man) got His information from God as in words of knowledge as in “I do as my Father tells me or I know what the Father shows me," etc.

Having said that the actual text is speaking of whom the Father gives to Jesus, though it is in no way an irresistible grace/predestination thing as taught by Calvinists. Again, the Father gives to Jesus those who truly believe.

John 6:64-65 “But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”

Nathan: “John 1:9 says nothing of the like. John is simply stating that God coming in the flesh gives the glimpse of the Divine to every man.”

I thought it was your belief that unregenerate man cannot SEE the divine. How is it that God can give a GLIMPSE of the divine if WE, who are not born of God, CANNOT SEE? It says that Jesus LIGHTS every man. That means, as Romans 1 and 2 teach, that WE KNOW BETTER! You’re the one who is inserting their beliefs into the scripture by taking certain scriptures and not reading them with the WHOLE counsel of the word.

Romans 1:19-21 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Please tell me how, with your theology, a man who is NOT born of God can KNOW God as this scripture reveals. The scripture is quite clear that it is MAN who puts Himself in hell because of His REFUSAL to acknowledge and obey God. True, WE cannot SAVE ourselves. It IS a gift from God. True, God GIVES us our faith, but He gives that to EVERY man. It is up to MAN to do right by it from His GOD-GIVEN abilities to CHOOSE as we ALL have a conscience and the commandments of God written on our hearts.

While you’re at it, please exegete this:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who desires to have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

John 3:14-21 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 “ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

2 Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Acts 3:19 “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”

Why would God command men to repent, to choose or to believe when they have no ability to do so. Isn’t it a bit absurd for Him to say things that are IMPOSSIBLE? And God makes these commands THROUGHOUT the Bible. It is what the Bible is about! It is about God’s love for every man and providing a way to salvation! I feel very sorry for anyone who cannot see the love of God in His book to us. It is SO obvious.

Nathan: “Again, your not reading the full text [John 6:37-45]. Jesus says that ALL who are called are RAISED. So then, if you believe that ALL are called, that is, every single human, then you have to believe ALL are going to be raised on the last day. That is what the text says, and I’m certain you are not a universalist.”

I think it is you who needs to read the full text. It does NOT say all who are called are raised. It says that all whom the Father GIVES Jesus will be raised. Who are the ones whom the Father gives to Jesus? Those who HEAR AND LEARN. Who are those who HEAR? Those who choose to BELIEVE. Those who choose to believe THEN LEARN and are thus BORN AGAIN. Those who refuse to hear cannot hear and are damned already.

Matthew 10:14 ”And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Matthew 13:15 “For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

There are plenty more scriptures where God shows us that it is the people THEMSELVES who CHOOSE not to hear or see. It is because they love the darkness more than the light.

Nathan: “Again, where is any notion of ‘foreknowing’ in this text? It’s absent once again. You cannot keep inserting your own beliefs into such a clear text and expect the truth to be revealed. And no, you cannot read the text backwards. I’m not sure where you got that interpretation, but whoever provided it doesn’t know anything about Greek.”

I got the interpretation from my knowledge of the scriptures as a whole. And no, I don’t know anything much about Greek other than looking up greek words in the concordance. What? Are you a greek scholar? Must I know greek before I can exegete the scriptures? I think not. Please, Nathan, don’t let your seminary teaching go to your head and think more highly of yourself than you ought.

Nathan: “If you want to accuse me of wrongly dividing the word of truth, please show from the actual text of Acts chapter 13 where exactly your belief is stated, otherwise, your accusations are baseless."

That is precisely the problem with the doctrine of “irresistible grace/predestination,” those who hold to the belief have to take scripture out of context to prove their point while disregarding the whole of the scripture. Predestination and Grace are taught in the Bible, but not as the Calvinist would teach it. You want me to stay with Acts 13:48 because of how is SOUNDS. It SOUNDS like ONLY those whom God has “arbitrarily chosen” are ordained to eternal life. But a proper exegesis of the scripture says otherwise.

Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Who are those who are ordained to eternal life? It is those who(soever) believe and receive. (John 1:12) Romans 8:29-30 tells us that those who are ordained to eternal life ARE foreknown. Ephesians 1 shows us what exactly it was that was foreordained/predestinated. It is predestined that those who believe and receive (accept) Jesus will be saved. (Not that God arbitrarily chooses a person out of His own good pleasure. That God chose to provide a savior AT ALL was what was out of His own good pleasure. That is not to say that God does not do other things out of His own good pleasure, but this is certainly one of them.) So all that put together (a right division) is where I get my interpretation of Acts 13:48. No greek needed! Imagine that! :-D

Nathan: “So ‘breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord’ was Paul with his heart right? [Later down in verse 15]: “[Paul] is a chosen vessel of mine”. Amazing how similar this wording is to Romans 9. But you affirm that Paul could have rejected the Lord while he was lying on the road blind?"

When I say that Paul’s heart was right, I mean that he was not evil like some of the other Pharisees. Paul says he did all that he did out of ignorance and unbelief. I could be completely wrong about the condition of Paul’s heart, but that doesn’t change the fact that Paul could have rejected Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 “And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”

Yes, I believe that Paul could have rejected the Lord, but I think God knew that He would not.

Ok I’m confused, are you now saying that anyone who is a “chosen vessel” cannot disobey? Because this is what you said before:

Nathan: “I never said that we are unable to be disobedient....But again, you do not understand my position. I never state that we have no choice in the matter. We DO have a choice, but unless one is born of the Spirit we will always choose the wrong choice.”

Romans 9 doesn’t mean what you make it out to mean. None of it has to do with salvation. It certainly doesn’t mean that God created someone evil or created someone for the PURPOSE of going to heaven or hell. And maybe I’ve misunderstood you and that’s not what you are saying either, but that’s what it seems like to me. That’s all I’ll say about it because I plan to go more into it in my next post.

Unless one is born of the Spirit we will ALWAYS choose the wrong choice?! No, you dit-unt! I guess everyone who warms a pew, feeds and clothes the poor, visits the prisoners, donates money and time to charities, etc. MUST be one who is born of the Spirit? I know you don't believe that! Do you?

Nathan: “No matter how hard you may deny it, but if you ‘made the right call’ while others failed to repent and place faith, the final glory goes to you. Yeah I know you will affirm that you could never earn heaven, or that God gets the glory because He supposedly provided a way out, but if the FINAL decision lies in your will, your will is to be gloried and honored above all else. Please review the Martin Luther quote Andrew provided to you in the comments section several months back.”

That is absurd. That is NOT what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that man sinned and deserved death and that God has provided a way for man to reconcile with God. God provided that reconciliation for EVERY MAN.

"He supposedly provided a way out"? (emphasis added) Care to explain that one?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6 "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

No, the final glory does not go to me and I don’t regard ANY glory in myself for having heeded the call of God. I don’t get ANY glory for making the right choice. How could I? There wasn’t anything “I” did to provide salvation. What I feel is THANKFULNESS! What I have done is to humble myself before God. (Matthew 18:4; James 4:6) But the other side to that is that you all could boast that you were CHOSEN. How is that any different than what you’ve stated? It could still be perceived that God loves those HE supposedly arbitrarily chose MORE than those He did not. God is no respecter of persons. He loves us all equally as the few scriptures I’ve provided above show.

I’ve just re-read Andrew’s Luther quote and I still disagree with it. To have a freewill does not negate the need for Jesus. The idea that it does is absurd.

Nathan: “You [Dawn] said: All who "hear" or "believe" (i.e., accept or put their faith in) and "learn" come to the Father.

Nathan: “That is not what the text says. You cannot read it backwards and ‘rightly divide the word of truth’.”
Let’s look at it again."

John 6:44-45 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Where have I read it backwards? When we’re taught of God that is one way in which God draws us. Every man who has heard and learned comes to Jesus. Again, where have I read it backward. Jesus makes a statement and then EXPLAINS the statement. In other words, everyone who has ears to hear and eyes to see because they CHOOSE to believe and do not REJECT but rather RECEIVE the commands of God are those whom the FATHER GIVES TO JESUS. It is really very simple.

Nathan: “Actually, it makes no sense to elect someone who ‘elected’ themselves. Why would God need to choose us if we chose Him? Again, this is not what the verse says. It says that NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father draws. And does the Father draw every man? No He doesn’t, because the rest of the verse says ALL who are drawn are raised.”

When you elect a candidate do you not elect them on certain criteria? Are there certain credentials that must be met in order for them to get your vote? And no, I’m not talking about works here. I’m talking about making a decision which in no way means “works.” God elects us when we meet certain criteria (i.e., belief, receipt and a willingness to repent). Yes, the Father draws every man. (John 12:32) And no, you are wrong, everyone who is given to Jesus is who is raised, not everyone who is drawn. (Please provide the scripture if I’ve got the wrong one.) Why would Jesus die for every man (Hebrew 2:9) if every man weren’t capable of being saved?

The bible teaches that we are all invited to receive salvation, those who receive and believe will be given the power to repent. Those who do not receive and believe are not given the power to repent. It is that simple.

Nathan: “Why would you have us believe that ‘no man can come’ actually means ‘every man can come’?”

It means that no man can come to the father on his own and that it is God who first DRAWS someone to Him. Once a person is drawn by God and chooses to believe and receive that drawing by believing what he is taught through the scripture, that person will then be given the power to repent. Read John 6:44 AND 6:45. The fact that all men are drawn has already been established. That is the WHOLE counsel of scripture, not scripture taken out of context.