What Does It Mean To Be Dead?
Here is what I think to be a most excellent exposition on the biblical term "dead in sin".
Labels: Calvinism
posted by Dawn @ 3/21/2007 03:32:00 PM
7 comments
Dawn's Deliberations
Hoping To Make A Difference
7 Comments:
Thanks, I'll check it out.
As I sit here I understand dead in sin to refer to ones responsiveness to God's commands. These people who dead in sin are not children of God but rather children of the world. An analogy that I used when teaching Romans 6 is that of the exclusiveness of the employee/employer relationship. The employee is only obedient to their employer not another employer. For instance, if I work for Ford and not GM then I take my orders from Ford not GM. The employee does not respond to the one that he is not in the employ of. I think Paul is saying that those who are outside of Christ do not respond to His commands because they are not in His "employ” They are “dead” to His Commands because they only respond to the one they are in the employ of.
I see it like Bud sees it. We are spiritually dead and we have no relationship with God. Not having a relationship with God does not mean that we are incapable of understanding His offer of salvation and accepting that offer because God has given us all the grace to understand that offer.
Leo: "As I sit here I understand dead in sin to refer to ones responsiveness to God's commands. These people who dead in sin are not children of God but rather children of the world."
But Leo, God has commanded us to not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. We do have the capability to obey those commands. Our spiritual death does not render us incapable.
Bud: "In fact, Ephesians 2:1–2 defines what it means to be dead: to be dead is to live in your sins and trespasses while you follow this Satanic world system! In the context “death” does not mean “unable to respond to God,” it means “living a sinful life in harmony with this evil world.” The Calvinist’s doctrine of total inability has to be imported because it is not native to the text.
In verse 3 Paul expands on this notion of spiritual death, adding some new information: death is “gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its thoughts and desires.” While this is hostility toward God, His Law, and any concept of holiness there is nothing here which equates death with inability!" (emphasis in original)
Like Bud said, there is nothing in the text to indicate inability. That must be inserted into the text.
Leo: "For instance, if I work for Ford and not GM then I take my orders from Ford not GM. The employee does not respond to the one that he is not in the employ of."
But Leo, there is a vast difference in "does not" and "cannot." The employee isn't rendered incapable of responding to the other employer. It is simply that he has chosen not to do so. He can at anytime decide to obey the other employer if He wants to. Right?
What did you think of Bud's article?
I read it. I have to wonder how he could conclude a denial of any "Calvinist Doctrine" from Genesis 3 when appearing before the direct presence of God could be argued to have a "regenerating affect" upon anyone since Adam probably repented. Bud should have chose Genesis 4 where Cain never gave any evidence of eternal life as a result of God's "face to face" call to repentance. God was merciful to Cain but did not Cain respond to God and live a life of pleasing God did he? He seemed to have rejected God’s offer of overcoming sin.
As to Ephesians 2 does not God intervene in verse 4? But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"
Look at verse 5 God made us alive while dead in our sins? One may easily read the so-called Calvinistic doctrines right into that passage! I do not read of any human response in chapter 2. Do you? Where? I read of God working and human beings being worked upon. Any other interpretation seems to come from outside of the passage.
I would agree that Paul is not teaching inability but no ability or willingness to obey is explicit in the passage it can only be read into it like the Calvinists are accused of reading their “theology” into the passage.
DawnI see it like Bud sees it. We are spiritually dead and we have no relationship with God. Not having a relationship with God does not mean that we are incapable of understanding His offer of salvation and accepting that offer because God has given us all the grace to understand that offer.
I do not disagree with your statement. Is not the Holy Spirit working to illumine our minds and drive away the blindness that the god of this world works with in deceiving the lost? 2 Corinthians 2:3-4?
DawnBut Leo, God has commanded us to not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. We do have the capability to obey those commands. Our spiritual death does not render us incapable.
I agree! The ability to obey these commands is due to the working of God’s Spirit through common grace that is bestowed upon everyone. My unspoken point was that the good works of human beings do nothing to merit salvation.
Dawn But Leo, there is a vast difference in "does not" and "cannot." The employee isn't rendered incapable of responding to the other employer. It is simply that he has chosen not to do so. He can at anytime decide to obey the other employer if He wants to. Right?
I agree that he can at anytime decide to leave the employ of one employer for another. In the Spiritual realm his decision to leave must include the influence of the Holy Spirit, right?
As to the article, well…he was passionate and did strongly believe what he wrote, was it persuasive? Well…
I'm hoping to come back to this thread soon!
Leo: "I have to wonder how he could conclude a denial of any "Calvinist Doctrine" from Genesis 3 when appearing before the direct presence of God could be argued to have a "regenerating affect" upon anyone since Adam probably repented."
I can't answer for Bud, but Adam was the first to die spiritually so it starts with Adam. To try to argue that God's presence would have a "regenerating effect" is the only reason Adam repented would most definitely be an insertion of one's theology into the text.
As to Cain's account, you have a good point, but Calvinists would shrug it off and simply say that God chose not to impute righteousness unto Cain simply because it was not His will to do so. Not because of anything Cain did or did not do, but beccause it pleased Him not to do so.
Leo: "I do not read of any human response in chapter 2. Do you? Where? I read of God working and human beings being worked upon. Any other interpretation seems to come from outside of the passage."
And this is what I simply do not understand. Why do you insist that this (man-made) chapter break excludes chapter 1 where Paul explicitly states that these people had believed and put their trust in Christ (1:12-13, 15 and further down in 2:8) or any other books of the New Testament.
Paul had already established the faith factor. And I dare say that he had established the faith factor with the church at Ephesus on his prior visits; one of which he'd stayed and taught for three years!
All Paul is saying here is that while we were yet sinners Christ has made us alive. At one moment we were dead in our trespasses and sins and the next moment we were made alive. Faith coupled with grace being a factor in God's quickening had been established in chapter 1 and prior to that in his earlier visits. He even says by grace are you saved. (v 5) And then in v 8 he sums it up by saying, by faith are you saved through grace! I had NEVER read those verses in a vacuum as Calvinists read them and I still don't.
Leo: "I would agree that Paul is not teaching inability but no ability or willingness to obey is explicit in the passage it can only be read into it like the Calvinists are accused of reading their “theology” into the passage."
No, we're not reading our "theology" into the passage. We're simply taking the whole book and then taking the whole bible and applying to the scripture as is the proper exegesis.
Leo: "Is not the Holy Spirit working to illumine our minds and drive away the blindness that the god of this world works with in deceiving the lost? 2 Corinthians 2:3-4?"
Yes, but what does that have to do with the so-called inability of the one dead in trespasses and sin? In other words, what does the Lord's Spirit shedding light on His truth in an effort to stave off the blinding deceit of the devil have to do with one's inability to respond to that light?
Leo: "I agree that he can at anytime decide to leave the employ of one employer for another. In the Spiritual realm his decision to leave must include the influence of the Holy Spirit, right?"
I'm not (and I don't think Bud is) disputing the influence the Holy Spirit has in one's salvation. The point we're making here is that being dead in sin does not render one incapable of responding to the gospel since it is the Holy Spirit Who is drawing and calling. Being dead in sin simply means that we are not capable of having a relationship with God. In order to have a relationship with God our spirit must be made alive (i.e., born again) so that we may actually worship God and worship Him in spirit and in truth.
So you are still of the mindset that Ephesians 2:4-5 is teaching inability?
Good thoughts, I'll try to get back to you soon.
If Paul was not using the term dead as a metaphor and He meant that we were rendered incapable of responding to the gospel, Christians would then be incapable of sinning since we are now "dead to sin." And we all know that is not true.
Romans 6:2 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6:11-14 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
Colossians 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
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